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One option that has not been considered: lobby to change the law. In the Gunks they have many of the same amenities as Muir (parking lots, toilets, roads, emergency personel) and they are able to charge access. Perhaps Roadside would reopen. We could quit trying to fundraise to fix the roads in the Pmrp and use the money to put in nice roads etc. everyone wins.

I don't know what it takes to change a law - but they have the laws that allow climbing in ny & Alabama for that matter. Perhaps we could lobby to adopt one of their laws. There's really no down side to trying that I can see.

clif wrote: jordancolburn, what i would hope to draw attention to is the possibility that of the 30,000 visitations their are probably 300-500 people who are visiting 100 times a year and then hordes of generally bigger and less experienced groups who also being less passionate about the sport and maybe even the outdoors are much less inclined toward the impulses of preservation and access. i think the Weber's effort to engage this group is awesome. i'm just encouraging a slightly less simplistic approach to the issue. i could be wrong.

I think more accurate numbers would be 5,000 who climb 4 or so weekends a year (20,000) and then 10,000 who might be one time visitors as a part of a big group. This is rough speculation on estimated numbers, but most of the climbers I know personally climb at Muir a couple of times a year in addition to visiting other areas. These people (the 5000 or so) will be more likely to care about the long term impact and be convinced to donate on a recurring basis at a higher level (I know this thread has made me more aware of the disparity between what I pay for climbing gear and travel and what I donate to the places I climb). The masses who show up only periodically need to be educated (signs, this website, climbing media as a whole) to contribute a few bucks to the places they climb.

Josephine wrote:One option that has not been considered: lobby to change the law. In the Gunks they have many of the same amenities as Muir (parking lots, toilets, roads, emergency personel) and they are able to charge access. Perhaps Roadside would reopen. We could quit trying to fundraise to fix the roads in the Pmrp and use the money to put in nice roads etc. everyone wins.

Agreed, but it might be harder than it sounds. In Illinois, the law recently changed to not allow free recreational use for climbing without liability. It didn't specifically mention climbing, but omitting it from permitted recreational activities left the land owners out in the cold and got the place I learned to climb, Draper's Bluff Closed.

http://www.accessfund.org/site/apps/nln ... ct=7128845

Would love to see the change though!

interesting thought, though Muir has been around for coming up on 10 years and have 10,000 waivers, so not sure we've got the15,000 to work with.

Rick and Liz, as always, thanks for your passion, continued generosity, and the unimaginable ability to let all the negativity roll off you. I'm sure you know the (silent) majority are thankful.

Jeff wrote:Rick and Liz, as always, thanks for your passion, continued generosity, and the unimaginable ability to let all the negativity roll off you. I'm sure you know the (silent) majority are thankful.

Right on, Jeff!!

Jeff wrote:Rick and Liz, as always, thanks for your passion, continued generosity, and the unimaginable ability to let all the negativity roll off you. I'm sure you know the (silent) majority are thankful.

+1

If only climbers had balls as big as gun owners we wouldnt have to worry about access.... Go NRA!!!

climb2core wrote:Patrick, while I can understand the desire to compare MV to the PMRP. However, I would say that the comparison is mostly not relevant and will not yield anything of value.

Thank you for this comment, C2C. I wholeheartedly agree with this and believe the comparisons should STOP. These are two distinct areas that operate differently, but both offer extraordinary climbing.