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climb2core wrote:

rjackson wrote:
The only thing that should even be an issue is unsafe gear, and even then it should be the climber's responsibility. Dustin has covered it, and if you don't agree, then Darwin will take care of it.

Pretty callous way to look at it. So once the person decks, why bother with emergency care and air evacuation. Just let the dumb fuck bleed out, it was their stupidity after all.

Have you read the warnings on your rope, your harness, your draws, your belay device, your helmet, your cams, your guide book and on this site? Climbing is a dangerous sport. "Accidents" happen, but is still ultimately the climber's responsibility. Period. Don't try and water it down. Many people would still be around today instead of 6 feet under had they taken the time to double-check, back-up, go elsewhere, respect their limitations or simply pay attention.

Climbing is dangerous. Agree.

If they are uneducated, let them die. Disagree.

Why not...
-As a voice of experience, provide ownership and mentorship in your community for everyone's safety.
-Do something to educate the potential "Darwin award" candidates.
-Actively participate "day to day" safe climbing as well as annual event.

I am not dismissing personal responsibility for the inherent risks in climbing. I am also not dismissing personal responsibility to try to take reasonable measures to limit that risk for all of us.

climb2core wrote:Climbing is dangerous. Agree.

If they are uneducated, let them die. Disagree.

Why not...
-As a voice of experience, provide ownership and mentorship in your community for everyone's safety.
-Do something to educate the potential "Darwin award" candidates.
-Actively participate "day to day" climbing as well as annual event.

Kum-ba yah dude... I'll put a quarter in your cup.

dustonian wrote:Simply because such a system will not last. The only truly effective safety habit over the long haul is personal responsibility. The rest of it (including draw removal days) remove responsibility from the individual, . . . . But please stop trying to regulate rock climbing and control individual climber's behaviors by tedious "groupthink", this is supposed to be fun after all.

+1 and spot on!!

Fuck this, let's go climb some cracks...... or chossy sport

dustonian wrote:Fuck this, let's go climb some cracks...... or chossy sport

+1

rjackson wrote:

climb2core wrote:Climbing is dangerous. Agree.

If they are uneducated, let them die. Disagree.

Why not...
-As a voice of experience, provide ownership and mentorship in your community for everyone's safety.
-Do something to educate the potential "Darwin award" candidates.
-Actively participate "day to day" climbing as well as annual event.

Kum-ba yah dude... I'll put a quarter in your cup.

Agree with you 110% rjackson. We are talking about rock climbing, not shooting hoops at the local park. If someone is dense enough to set out on a rock climbing trip with the assumption they aren't taking their life into their own hands then, as was stated, let Darwin sort it out. Climbing is in no way a necessity. As a society we put safeguards into all kinds of things from food and water to cars, etc, etc.... All those things require your points regarding mentorship, education, etc... Climbing does not. If it gets that kind of attention great, but in no way is someone being callous if they think its not a requirement or duty of the community.

Dustonian, caribe, rjackson, and bcombs...

If you don't want to participate in an event like the one I proposed to educate climbers on mank gear (and in the process have them assess and fix it) then so be it. Go climb and do what ever you want.

I am assuming most of you had mentors that taught you the ropes and saved you from the Darwin award. Except, the problem is... new climbers are by far exceeding the number of old mentors. I suspect that you do try to provide mentorship and promote safe climbing in your micro-community. Not sure why there is so much push back to a larger community driven event day that would serve a similar purpose and function that your mentor did for you.

If "increasing safety" is really your objective, then you need to teach them all how to belay, clean anchors, and rappel too. This would have orders of magnitude greater impact on safety than playing around with draws all day.

How many fatalities or serious accidents have been caused by mank sport draws in the Red? Zero. Nice work everyone, keep checking that gear you're choosing to trust!

How many groundfalls, close calls, and fatalities from poor basic safety techniques? I'm afraid to even count.

What makes you assume that we aren't already doing this?