Who does it belong to?

[pigsteak]

third person always signals a neurosis....

[Crankmas]

Are gold fish reaping the rewards of the advancing value of gold??? Are gold fish a good investment??

[climb2core]

Are gold fish reaping the rewards of the advancing value of gold??? Are gold fish a good investment??

Either your wit is over my head or you are a nit-wit

[bob]

I’m sorry I wasn’t clear. My concern is that, unless individuals police themselves, property owners will need to step in and police for them and this will likely lead to closures.

Torrent seems to concentrate the access issues. Whatever happens there is happening in my face. If the climbing at Torrent were out on the “north forty” many of the issues would be less pressing and easier to deal with. I look at what happens at Torrent as an “accelerated model” of climbing access on private property. It should not be incumbent on a property owner to manage; those receiving free access should be able to manage themselves. If the act of granting access comes with the requirement to actively manage then access will become endangered. A property owner should not have to manage unless they wish (are not required) to do so … they should be able to say “these are the rules” and expect that they be respected. The only management I personally wish to do involves limiting the crowds. I do not want to have a toilet or any other installation that I am responsible for or have to look at. I do not wish to have to manage to the extent that the Weber’s have chosen to. I will, however, not take the almost entirely hands off style of Grant Stephens as there is both a business and a home on my property.

There is a lifetime of rock from Menifee Co. to the Tennessee border and a substantial portion of it is on someone else’s land. When you, the community, approach another land owner regarding access to their land for climbing do you not think that the owner will look to other private owners for guidance and some idea as to what to expect from the act of granting access. If all they see is the need to “manage” they may have reservations regarding access. What you do or do not do affects others … always.

[toad857]

...unless individuals police themselves, property owners will need to step in and police for them and this will likely lead to closures.

If anyone reading this thread doesn't feel like going through 9 pages of crap, just read the above sentence, and all should be clear.

Police yourselves.

Encourage others to do the same.

[climb2core]

Dr. Bob, thanks for taking a moment to clarify your concerns. There is obviously a community of climbers that DO care and DO respect your simple rules. The problem is how to effectively "Police our own". Seems to me like primary means must be education and stewardship by the people that do climb at Torrent Falls. However, there will always be someone that will not follow your rules. For that I can only apologize and respect your decision should you wish to remove all public access to your home. If you do choose to keep it open, would you consider a "Stewards of Torrent Falls". A committee to work on educating and enforcing the rules of Torrent Falls as well as maintenance and improvement. It seems like the community of climbers could try to give back a little to someone that has stepped up large on our behalf.

Thanks for the opportunities I have had to climb at Torrent already. I would be more than happy to contribute on this committee... I have unfinished business on that 12 wall

[bob]

Again, I think you miss my point. I don’t want a committee, I don’t want a group of stewards, I don’t want to have to build signs, take out ads, etc.; I want simple respect for a group of relatively minimal rules. If each and every case of access requires a committee or a group of stewards do you not think that there will be problems with access overall?

[bob]

I do appreciate the offer though ...

[727foxtree]

Okay, I've been reading a lot of these posts and I can't seem to find what exactly has been done that needs policing. I'm asking because I honestly can't seem to find it. Please list them out so we can actually "police" this stuff.

Thanks!

[dustonian]

Correct me if I'm wrong:

- Dogs (?)
- People crapping on the trail, under crags, leaving TP, finger tape, energy bar wrappers, cigarette butts, etc. behind (sadly frequent; unfortunately I never catch them in the "act," but everyone who climbs at Torrent or anywhere else should walk out of the crag with a small grocery bag full of misc. gathered trash)
- People poaching Torrent without registering online, or coming with more than 3 in their group

Anything else? Let's kick these fools' asses!