RRC Archives

clif wrote:i think lena chita makes some points worth noting. some spotty replies are cause for continuing concern for me.

i'd want to check, but the rocks ate the base of BB prolly don't extend out much past six feet, which is where the ground turns mostly smooth and flat.

and i think it's fine to make judgements about accidents and the thinking (or lack of) of the team. were they communicating about ground fall potential?

i'm particularly aggravated by the mention of the irrelevant fact that the climber had been on a harder route that day. so predictably simplistic to equate hard climbing with competence.

'gyms aren't responsible for ....' argument . pretty lame.

What is lame about it?

suck it up. assume responsibility.

fact.

i'd want to check, but the rocks ate the base of BB prolly don't extend out much past six feet, which is where the ground turns mostly smooth and flat.

and i think it's fine to make judgements about accidents and the thinking (or lack of) of the team. were they communicating about ground fall potential?

i'm particularly aggravated by the mention of the irrelevant fact that the climber had been on a harder route that day. so predictably simplistic to equate hard climbing with competence.

1.) I was spent at least a couple of hours of the base of BB that day... you are correct it is that the rock extends about 6' out from the base of the route. CLee's head was literally at the very end of the rock... Not sure what your point is to be honest?

2.) Sound judgements should be based upon knowledge and fact... not upon assumption and guessing. Based upon your comments, I would tend to judge you as an arrogant jerk, but then again I really don't know you and I am pretty sure your personality is the greater than the sum of the few comments you made her. Same for CLee... But as the say, opinions are like a**holes... everyone has one.

3.) I stated a fact.... CLee was seen climbing a harder route. You made the assumption that it spoke to her competence. I carefully chose my words and did not speak to either her competence or lack thereof. I don't know her climbing ability well enough to judge. You are aggravated, really? Why? Instead of being aggravated why don't you intelligently express your arguments for the betterment of the climbing community?

at the least it (the not responsible argument) demonstrates a lack of concern. to dismiss the opportunity to elevate awareness, emphasize responsibility, contribute to a climbing culture of preventative measures...

2core..

my point in the 6 ft. note was an attempt to elicit clarity and get the facts so that sound judgements could be made. thanks for the encouragement...

so, it sounds like she landed closer to the base of the rock than six feet...

I was introduced to climbing by Outward Bound. It was all top roping. I then got into leading on my own through reading Basic & Advanced Rockcraft. If early on I had gotten injured in an accident should I have blamed it on Outward Bound and Royal Robbins?

fuk yeah you should...Royal that goodfurnuthinbusturd......?

I was at the corner today and this beemer skipped the light and caught the corner of this old beater station wagon. The guy was furious when he got out of his bmw. Cussin and throwin his hands up. He ran up to the wagon like he was gonna kick somebodies ass. I woulda given money to have it on video...You shoulda seen his face when the nuns got out of the wagon. HE-LARIOUS!! People were standing on the corner shaking their heads at the guy who obviously f'd the pooch. He went and sat in his car until the cops got there. At the end of it all. He tried to shake the head nuns hand and she just crossed herself. Some sorta vow I was guessing. That guy couldn't do anything but put his foot in his own arse. Funny stuff...

climb2core,

you seem like much less an arrogant jerk than i am. help me understand some of your thinking, please.

climb2core wrote:
2.) Was the fall preventable by belaying/spotting?

is this the important question? would you agree that what needs to be prevented is landing on the ground and/or injury?

climb2core wrote:... a.) Spotting would have been likely been ineffective in this instance as the logical place to spot seemed to be at the base of the climb.

so, spotting was done? 'logical' because once one chooses a spot one must not move to adjust for climber's stance and direction of force?

climb2core wrote: b.) The belayer was standing at the base of ther crag (base upon rope bag placement and first hand accounting of the fall) c.) Catching a blown second clip by the belayer became even m,ore challenging based upon the fact that CLee landed approx. 3 ft. higher than ground level where the belayer was standing at the base of the crag. Based upon the observations, I doubt that better belaying or spotting could have prevented the ground fall.

if these facts are accurate, which i can not infer from the placement of the rope bag, i think the belayer, IF aware of the fall potential, would want to stand up on top of the rock so as to minimize the length of rope out. also, in the event of a sudden fall, by moving off the rock one can quickly take the two or three feet out of the line. can someone smarter than me confirm this?

Ian, thanks for helping me understand. best wishes.

opinions are like assholes. Every ones got one, it doesn't mean you should share it with a gerbil.

is this the important question? would you agree that what needs to be prevented is landing on the ground and/or injury?

That is what I meant... thought that would be obvious. Do you really think I was saying we should prevent falling in general, lol. That is part of sport climbing. But sure, you are correct... I meant ground fall to be specific.

so, spotting was done? 'logical' because once one chooses a spot one must not move to adjust for climber's stance and direction of force?

I do not believe there was a spotter. The climber and belayer were not climbing with others in the group. No one else made any other comments that they were spotting. Of course spotters/belayers need to be constantly moving to be in the optimal place. I have belayed on BB many times, and never moved back up onto to the boulder behind for the second clip. I think that is because I have chosen to stay close to the base and get closer to being under the first bolt. Also, I have never belayed anyone on BB that I felt would be in danger of blowing a second clip.

if these facts are accurate, which i can not infer from the placement of the rope bag, i think the belayer, IF aware of the fall potential, would want to stand up on top of the rock so as to minimize the length of rope out. also, in the event of a sudden fall, by moving off the rock one can quickly take the two or three feet out of the line. can someone smarter than me confirm this?

Clif, don't you tend to belay with the rope bag close to your feet? the rope bag was on the ground at the base of the cliff. Every belayer I have seen on BB has belayed from the dirt directly at the base. But you are correct, rope/bag placement does not in itself determine belayer position. I think your point is valid... in retrospect it would have been a better belayer stance to be up on the rock with the ability to jump down. The question is the belayers ability to predict their partners fall potential at the second bolt. That I can't answer... I do know that if you the belayer started at the base on the dirt and the climber got in trouble while making the second clip, it would be very difficult to have the time/presence of mind to be able to get up on the boulder behind you, watch your climber, and take up slack. That is assuming they had time for all that to occur.' But as smart as you are, I am sure you would always be in the optimal place to belay

I think we need to look for what we can learn as a climbing community from this...

1.) Wear a helmet.
2.) Climb within your ability. Not passing judgement on CLee if she was/was not. Belayers also need to evaluate your climbing partners ability and be willing to error on the side of caution. ie. Tell your partner, "Lets stick clip the second bolt this time"
3.) Evaluate for worst case scenarios.
4.) New climbers need to seek out mentors (and need to be encouraged to do so). Experienced/educated climbers need to seek out new climbers. Maybe a mentorship program could be put in place at gyms to bring together the inexperienced/experienced
5.) Realistic scenarios need to be taught at the gym during leading lessons/education. ie. Ground fall opportunity during second bolt clipping.
6.) Use spotters. As I have said, I cannot say for certain if spotting could have prevented injury during the fall, but it is worth it based upon the chance that it could of.

Again, I don't know whether or not this specific ground fall was preventable. But I do know the lessons I have learned from it will make me and my climbing partners safer...

Thanks for asking questions Clif... I believe we are all looking for the same thing here.

Ian

Belay Spoof
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XeL5NC7Mp0o