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Flux and Harvest don't end on a jug and I think they're excellent lines. If they kept going to the top (aka classic John Bronaugh ending) they wouldn't be as good. Sometimes it's ghey that lines keep going to the top because the rock turns to shit or the climbing is just stupid or like a full number grade off from the other 95% of the line. Just my personal taste though. If Amarillo went to the top it wouldn't be the classic 5.11 that it is. It would probably be the 5.13 that nobody wants to do because the grade wavers dramatically right near the top. I haven't been past the chains so I'm not sure but if it's some crazy impossible boulder problem then it would never get climbed.

all in all as long as the person who says they "did" a route means they clipped into the anchor(s) not fell clipping or some shit like that then whatever. if you sleep at night and you do what you say then game on.

JR- I don't bolt routes. I've drilled a grand total of 1 hole in my 18 years of climbing. There are plenty of routes that don't end with a jug. I'd name 20, then the arguement would simply shift to "What is/isn't a jug" which is an equally stupid debate.

I think many folks are losing perspective on a few things. People need to be appreciative of the hard work and investment route developers put in to create our playgrounds instead of pissing and moaning about not having a jug to clip the anchors. Quit bitching about "this bolt needs to be moved" ad nausem. If you can't clip the anchors or bolt X, suck it up and just get stronger. If the bolters work "offends" you, don't get on the route. I don't think route developers should cater to the lowest common denominator at the expense of not bolting what or how they want to.

agreed. some bolters have certain traits that come out in their routes. lurks old routes where you have to do two moves from the stance to clip when he simply could clip from low comes to mind. i know this before hand(now) and can adjust my mindset.

however if a 5star bolter like his highness the great lord kipp trummel of pigsteakland bolts something 2star i wonder if he is well. was he sick, needed help, stressed, caught in a well, etc. i want to get i inside the mind of these bolt fairies so i can learn the magic.

plus bad jobs are bad examples.

besides toy, all these folks are at work and just need something to focus on(because you know you're at work) and negative has a stronger pull. fuggers.

You have to clip at least one draw on the anchor.
Except on Chainsaw--it's fine to take the victory whip and call it a day.

I only say that because I have gotten to the clipping crimp 6 times and fallen before clipping the anchor!

Toy wrote: There are plenty of routes that don't end with a jug. I'd name 20, then the arguement would simply shift to "What is/isn't a jug" which is an equally stupid debate.

There are plenty of routes that don't end on jugs. The question was which "great" route doesn't have a finishing hold?

I was just stating a preference for routes that have a ending as dictated by the rock not the bolts. It is really no big deal. I have met plenty of people that have never climbed a route they didn't like. Maybe you are one of those people. There are tons of routes at the Red. I personally think some are better than others, for many reasons. Some of those reason we might agree on. Some not.

Bolters are not beyond reproach...Bolting is a skill not unlike climbing. It takes time to develop and may never be mastered.

SCIN wrote:Flux and Harvest don't end on a jug and I think they're excellent lines.

Those are pretty good examples of routes that would be better(and exactly the same grade) if they had a jug at the end. But like you were eluding to, they finish in a logical spot at the top albeit not actually topping out.

So are they great? I am sure some would argue that they are. They are a great example of what the Red is known for. Long steep heavily featured rock climbs. Did I enjoy them? You bet.

OK JR, I said I wouldn't but I'll throw you a bone. Subman is a great route. It has a lil' of everything including crimpers to clip the chains. The holds just stop at the chains. Should it stop 15 feet lower because Jerry X keeps pitching from the anchors? Nope.

And I agree that bolters and routes shouldn't be above scrutiny, but neither should the opinions of armchair route developers.

Thanks for recommending Subman. I will have to check it out.

Just out of curiousity are there any routes that you don't like that most people enjoy?

bandolier.

do people never mind. another thread.