charlie wrote:TrueNorth, that's the most absurd thing I've read in this thread.
We going to have fall registers at the bottom of every route now?
"This bolt has 89,643 falls left." But, of those falls since 52 were intentional or could be attributed to a gumby that got in way over their head we're gonna be safe and set the tally to 82,345 remaining falls. But, since we had a big storm here in the spring and this route caught a bit more rain than usual we should drop it down to 78,345."
You take a chance every time you climb (and I'd assume it's mostly for personal celebration and gratification). Respecting the landowners wishes is one thing, believing (and planting this absurdity in other people's minds) a dozen extra whippers a year is going to compromise someone else's safety is just a bit too much for me to swallow.
TrueNorth wrote:It is the loss of the old philosophies that concern me. They are proven philosophies that worked and were based on the well being of the climbing community. Why disregard them and what type of personality justifies ignoring them?
Time has changed and therefore philosophies have had to change. These things just are not written in black white.
It worked really well then but it just can't work the same now..esp as climbing seems to change nearly every year.
they are not ignored they are consider and adjusted based on todays new demands.
Whether or not you take victory whips or whatever the bolt is designed to take those loadings. The engineers that designed these hangers and bolts, i guaranttee you, looked at every possible fall angle, loading, fatigue factors and all the properties related to these bolts. they are desinged to take the falls guys and like anything else they have to be replaced eventually. its knowing when to replace them is the thing since we cant determine how much longer the rock will hold due to repeated loading on it from falls. like i said earlier its sandstone and will eventually fail alot sooner than those bolts ever will!
Who Me? I gotta hitch hike god damn 18 miles to get a god damn beer......that's bullshit.
For some reason this thread conjured up unexplained emotions within me. It is not just a safety issue.
No it’s something deeper. It is the lack of respect and consideration that manifest itself into possible safety issues. But it goes deeper then safety, in this thread it has reared its head in several ways.
It has and will continue to divide our climbing community. It has been disruptive in our attempts to organize, be political active and to promote the area. It has been disruptive in the RRGCC ability to purchase the land, MV ability to develop their gift to the climbing community, and our ability to organize events and in reality limited our abilities to fully enjoy this natural resource. I don’t know that we can blame any one group or organization. Perhaps the way we view things as individuals that plays a more important role.
I’m just going to go find some old abandon classic route in the gorge, one that everyone has forgotten about, and climb.
I guess its my time to finally speak! I am not much for arguing on the web. I have done my best to put good routes for everyone to climb on. The dynabolt golds seem to loosen up easier than powers 5 part, but no one had ever used them in the Red until now. We are addressing the problem. I have personally retighened alot of them since Muir opened, and will continue to do so.
t bone wrote:I guess its my time to finally speak! I am not much for arguing on the web. I have done my best to put good routes for everyone to climb on. The dynabolt golds seem to loosen up easier than powers 5 part, but no one had ever used them in the Red until now. We are addressing the problem. I have personally retighened alot of them since Muir opened, and will continue to do so.
I am confused. Please explain in more detail what you mean by your comments here. As you will see as you read my post, I am NOT criticizing -- just trying to understand these new philosophies in the climbing world. Some of the comments posted here surprise me. (But, heck, that happens more and more these days.)
rhunt wrote:
TrueNorth wrote:It is the loss of the old philosophies that concern me. They are proven philosophies that worked and were based on the well being of the climbing community. Why disregard them and what type of personality justifies ignoring them?
rhunt wrote:Time has changed and therefore philosophies have had to change. These things just are not written in black white.
Do philosophies HAVE to change? Aren't some of our cherished principles ages old? Aren't some of them carved in stone rather than printed in black and white because they work well in the climbing community and in civilized society?
rhunt wrote:It worked really well then but it just can't work the same now..esp as climbing seems to change nearly every year.
Why can't it work the same? In other words, why can't we retain certain solid mores and principles of climbing ethics subscribed to by most climbers for decades? What are these changes your refer to and why do they demand that we change our philosophies of conduct? What is the downside if we continue to try to make it "work the same"?
rhunt wrote:they are not ignored they are consider and adjusted based on todays new demands.
"Adjusted?" Does this mean in some cases "compromised and discarded?" It seems so in these posts. What kind of "new demands?" Are victory whips a new demand? Wouldn't you agree that just because a demand is "new" doesn't necessarily make it reasonable, ethical, or one we must unquestionably adopt?
Again I'm asking so that I fully understand these new ideas. You may offer some very convincing arguments. But, until you or others follow up with rational explanations, I'll stick with my old tried and true climbing principles. And, I'll respect your right to exercise your new ones.
Rick
We cannot change the cards we are dealt, just how we play the hand. - Randy Pausch
None are so old as those who have outlived enthusiasm. - Henry David Thoreau
This is a very interesting thread. I have learned a lot. I admire you all for allowing each other to disagree and remain civil AND passionate in your positions on this issue.
I have a few irrelevant points for you all to ignore:
Mr weber would you start raising llamas so we could use them to carry our gear to and from the crags? I would be willing to move to the Red and care for the herd.
I will not take victory whippers anywhere in the Red especially on someone else's rope.
Was I the only one who thought that "spinners" was a derogatory term for petite women?(or just the only one without the good taste to not mention that definition?)
I try to be a good man but all that comes
of trying is I feel more guilty.
Ikkyu