Nice Outside Online arcticle on Muir Valley

[climb2core]

Patrick, while I can understand the desire to compare MV to the PMRP. However, I would say that the comparison is mostly not relevant and will not yield anything of value. Think of the differences... Well maintained gravel roads, ample flat parking that is not a mud pit, emergency response supplies, well maintained trails, impact areas at base of crags, bridges, toilets at the parking lot and soon the valley floor, etc.

I am not saying that either path is better or worse, just different. And as the land owners of MV, it is the Webers absolute right to decide how they will manage the land. Many, many people appreciate those attributes and that is the community that we hope to appeal to. The other group that might support MV are those that don't really believe in the Webers vision, but are pragmatic enough to realize that the busy season now would seem like the dead of winter without MV.

Well I hope your not preaching to me, I have not said anything in this whole thread.. I fully support the Webbers and Muir Valley. I could care less what they do with my money. It's just the right thing to do. Come on 2 or 3 bucks shouldn't hurt anyone's feelings.. It only takes one meeting with Rick and Liz to relize how cool and nice these people are. Some of you should be ashamed of the things you have said..

Lol, sorry Patrick. Had you mixed up with climbingrocks.

[clif]

i don't think any of the climber trails at the New are federally cared for. parking lots are a relatively recent phenomenon too.

this tendency to think of Muir as detached from the rest of reality, transcending comparisons to the pmrp, not somehow part of a wider dynamic; interesting.

[dustonian]

i don't think any of the climber trails at the New are federally cared for. parking lots are a relatively recent phenomenon too.

Damn you're a moron. You do know someone has to purchase private land in order to own and allow us to climb on it (ie. with money), and then pay property taxes (with money), worry about liability insurance (with money), and maintain the privately owned roads, parking lots, and other facilities like bathrooms (with money), right?

[clif]

no, i have people like you to wipe my ass..

just kidding. i thought that Muir was some sort of LLC 501 quasi tax exempt entity. i'd love to know their annual property taxes for the climbing portion though.

[dustonian]

Haha now you want to see their tax returns too! Could you possibly act like any more of an entitled brat??

[climb2core]

How about this...

Lets end this thread. Nothing is being accomplished at this point. Hopefully soon, FoMV will have another thread for you. It will be titled 2013 FoMV budget. It will answer many of your questions Clif. It will most likely create more. If all goes well, we will have a page set up to answers those as well. If you still don't have your answers, you can contact the BOD directly and I am sure they will be happy to do their best to answer.

In the mean time, let it be. If you happen to climb Muir in the mean time, at the very least just make sure to thank the Webers for the experience.

Let it go for now.

Ian

[tradotto]

Shew, glad that's over...

[clif]

with apologies Ian but i'm going to press a little further because what i think this thread could accomplish.

jordancolburn, what i would hope to draw attention to is the possibility that of the 30,000 visitations their are probably 300-500 people who are visiting 100 times a year and then hordes of generally bigger and less experienced groups who also being less passionate about the sport and maybe even the outdoors are much less inclined toward the impulses of preservation and access. i think the Weber's effort to engage this group is awesome. i'm just encouraging a slightly less simplistic approach to the issue. i could be wrong.

dustonian, considering your anger at the events around Roadside i'd think you'd be more circumspect. i have no interest in seeing the Weber's tax returns, just wanted you to consider the parking lot/tax connection, which has been discussed.

[climb2core]

with apologies Ian but i'm going to press a little further because what i think this thread could accomplish.

jordancolburn, what i would hope to draw attention to is the possibility that of the 30,000 visitations their are probably 300-500 people who are visiting 100 times a year and then hordes of generally bigger and less experienced groups who also being less passionate about the sport and maybe even the outdoors are much less inclined toward the impulses of preservation and access. i think the Weber's effort to engage this group is awesome. i'm just encouraging a slightly less simplistic approach to the issue. i could be wrong.

dustonian, considering your anger at the events around Roadside i'd think you'd be more circumspect. i have no interest in seeing the Weber's tax returns, just wanted you to consider the parking lot/tax connection, which has been discussed.

Ugh... Clif. You are making some crazy assumptions. The average climber climbs at MUIR 100 x's per year???? OMG, you are detached from reality. We have over 10,000 unique waivers on file.

[clif]

no, i'm not making assumptions. i was generalizing a trend. not 100 x's, but i'm guessing distinct user groups, i know your not arguing that the 10,000 users are equivalent, or still active. i hope that list of individuals is being put to work. if you want help inputing them into a searchable database (or any other busy work to keep me out of this thread) let me know.