Community Meeting - Nov 9th

[climb2core]

Any interest in a community supported day for removing all project draws and dedicated day for inspecting and replacing steel biners that need it?

I do understand that mank gear should be removed as seen fit on a daily basis but...
-Having a dedicated day will raise awareness and make better stewards on a day to day basis
-It is the best type of "give back" to the community day... You job is to climb.
-It would be nice once or twice a year to make sure all abandoned gear (or as much as possible) is removed.
-Community defined PD's (the list) would be systematically climbed with replacement steel PD"s on hand with the intent of stopping and thoroughly inspecting each piece, and replacing if needed.


Also, I know it has been suggested before... but what about documenting the dates were routes equipped with steel PD's and the dates what draws were replaced in the online guide.

Something like this:
http://www.redriverclimbing.com/RRCGuid ... te&id=2090

[kneebar]

I like your plan if that is the way it is going to go, at the very least less ropes will get shreaded!

Anybody have any hard research on how much longer steel verses aluminum biners last?

[krampus]

I disagree with your side note also.....I'm not trying to start a fight with you just giving you my opinion. By leaving your pd's you are leaving trash on the wall for others to clean up no matter there condition, if anyone is actively stepping on anyones toes it's not the climber who has to clean someone else's project. Who knows how long the pd's have been in place?

No fight started, I appreciate your opinion. As I have said before, I don't care if draws are up or not, it does not affect my day. I just think that if we do have to have a vote, that more options should be presented, including a vote for abstention, or even a vote for "leave it be"

[dustonian]

The date of placement is not a very useful metric, as the grittiness of the sand at the base, the popularity of the route, the frequency of falls on each bolt, the alignment of the bolts, and the metallurgy of the biners and/or quicklink are all significant variables in the equation, in addition to age.

As with everything in rock climbing, it is each individual's responsibility to physically check any and all gear before trusting it with their life, regardless of all other factors.

[climb2core]

The date is not a very useful metric, as the grittiness of the sand at the base, the popularity of the route, the frequency of falls on each bolt, the alignment of the bolts, and the metallurgy of the biners and/or quicklink are all significant variables in the equation, in addition to age.

Dates can become useful over time when the 1st, 2nd, and 5th PD's wear out again and a pattern begins to be established.

As with everything in rock climbing, it is each individual's responsibility to physically check any and all gear before trusting it with their life, regardless of all other factors.

Dustin, of course you are right. But please consider this: If you could put in place a system that could save someone from dying with minimal impact on you or anyone else, why wouldn't you do it?

[dustonian]

Simply because such a system will not last. The only truly effective safety habit over the long haul is personal responsibility. The rest of it (including draw removal days) remove responsibility from the individual, and will fade out in the long run over 5-10-20+ years. In the end it will serve to encourage individual-level complacency, just as hanging permanent-looking steel draws (which wear out more slowly but just as surely) did in the first place. It is far more effective to encourage individual responsibility in a general sense when it comes to climbing. And yes, it is a shame that this vital safety ethic has faded so drastically here in the RED.

Most importantly: check your shit, and if you don't like to clip fixed draws, then hang your own. If you don't like sport climbing, then don't go to sport crags--we are simply not able to go back to "the way things were" 15 years ago, for better or worse. If the draw is sharp or quicklink gouged, take it down. There are enough climbers doing this that if they are not replaced, then over time they will disappear--in this way, consensus is reached in a "natural" way. But please stop trying to regulate rock climbing and control individual climber's behaviors by tedious "groupthink", this is supposed to be fun after all.

[krampus]

please stop trying to regulate rock climbing and control individual climber's behaviors by tedious "groupthink", this is supposed to be fun after all.

Can't express this enough, I'm no teabagger, but I do not support regulation in this matter.

[climb2core]

Simply because such a system will not last. The only truly effective safety habit over the long haul is personal responsibility. The rest of it (including draw removal days) remove responsibility from the individual, and will fade out in the long run over 5-10-20+ years. In the end it will serve to encourage individual-level complacency, just as hanging permanent-looking steel draws (which wear out more slowly but just as surely) did in the first place. It is far more effective to encourage individual responsibility in a general sense when it comes to climbing. And yes, it is a shame that this vital safety ethic has faded so drastically here in the RED.

Most importantly: check your shit, and if you don't like to clip fixed draws, then hang your own. If you don't like sport climbing, then don't go to sport crags--we are simply not able to go back to "the way things were" 15 years ago, for better or worse. If the draw is sharp or quicklink gouged, take it down. But please stop trying to regulate rock climbing and control individual climbers' behavior by tedious "groupthink", this is supposed to be fun after all.

It won't last? How long has the J&A Trail day been going? Will it be running in another decade?

It will serve to encourage complacency? 1000% disagree. A day dedicated to heightening awareness of mank gear and encouraging voluntary inspection and removal. Examples of bad biners, PD's, eroded bolts, worn dogbones, and faded webbing could be on hand.

I can't help but wonder if an event like that had been in place for Ben and Laura if the accident could have been prevented.

Regulate rock climbing? WTF is being regulated?!!?? Once a year, the community comes together to remove mank gear. The other 364 days you do whatever you want with your shit. If it is mank shit, hopefully someone will take it down, maybe even a person that was educated and motivated from one of the "Spank the Mank" events. We use better bolts to make is safer, have modified the spacing to make it safer, use better equipment to make it safer. Why the hell wouldn't you promote community awareness and buy in on the management of gear to make it safer?

[rjackson]

OK Pigsteak. Since you feel that the majority of climbers are apathetic to the issue I'll go ahead and appease you (somewhat) by at least expressing an (my) opinion(s). I could ramble for days (as most already have), but i'll try and keep it short.

It's sport climbing. Who cares...

Dustin. Bump... (on just about every comment, and especially the "asshole" test, which should be the adopted manifesto)

I don't believe there can be any rules, or even generally accepted "policy" established by climbers, unless all climbers get to vote on it. And that will never happen. (Face it, the BOD is "appointed" and how would you even manage the international contingency, which should count as RRG climbers)

The only thing that should even be an issue is unsafe gear, and even then it should be the climber's responsibility. Dustin has covered it, and if you don't agree, then Darwin will take care of it.

A meeting in Lexington, on a work day, right after working hours, by self-appointed administrators and facilitators, will not be conducive to a broad or general concensus.

There is no aesthetic issue to deal with. When was the last time that you saw the quintessential nuclear family with daypacks and binoculars at any climbing area other than perhaps Left Flank or Tower, certainly not in the Southern. And I think the guys (or gals) on 4-wheelers running up Fixer could care less about perma-draws.

There is a lot of rock out there... Don't like what's going on around you? Go somewhere else, come back when there is a crowd you like or even better, when the crowds have gone away. (Again, it's your individual choice and responsibility.)

OK. So I said I wouldn't ramble so I better go ahead stop. Besides, with just these few comments (which are totally my own opinions) I am sure to have angered many. With that said Sir Steak of Pig, I return you to your regularly scheduled debacle...

[climb2core]

The only thing that should even be an issue is unsafe gear, and even then it should be the climber's responsibility. Dustin has covered it, and if you don't agree, then Darwin will take care of it.

Pretty callous way to look at it. So once the person decks, why bother with emergency care and air evacuation. Just let the dumb fuck bleed out, it was their stupidity after all.