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Actually, the Shire and Chica B are very popular crags these days, given the distribution of moderate routes and decent quality. Curbside is still kind of a pile but people like to climb there too.

Word of mouth = published and opened in some cases.
Impact is evidence.
Time to climb.

Not really. There is at least an order or magnitude or two difference between word-of-mouth "crowded" and in-the-guidebook crowded... especially in October. I think most every route developers is acutely aware of this and the considerable hazards of publishing your new crag until access is 100% and the infrastructure is complete. At the very least, the land should be legal and a trail work day should be completed.

Can someone fill me in on what areas/walls are seening the most traffic right now. Are the crowds all from out of town elite rock stars working hard routes or is the over crowding in the moderate grade range?

If it sucks so much to come to crowded cliff every weekend, will you keep coming back? If next time you come down suddenly all off the secret climbing areas are open will you still be considering taking up trad or going to a different area in a different state? If we just disperse the crowds and it fixes the issue but we never really address the real problem are we really fixing anything?

dollyjn wrote:More routes: Increase the need for parking, trailheads...etc.

No, each new crag has it's own parking support more or less. Parking is well distributed in general and not localized. Developing a new crag does not in general mean that parking lot X get's bigger. The only parking lot that might have to get a little bigger if crag X is developed is Miguel's.

Just to put another spin on it, something that a non-climbing friend brought up.

"If there is so much concern about impact, look at the other side of the coin. Meaning, if climbers were never there, what would the area be used for (if anything)?"

So I started making a list:

1) Nothing
2) Pumping oil
3) Well.. nothing
4) Growing weed?
5) Nothing
6) Hiding bodies?

What else?

rhunt wrote:Can someone fill me in on what areas/walls are seening the most traffic right now. Are the crowds all from out of town elite rock stars working hard routes or is the over crowding in the moderate grade range?

5-10 crags in Muir and 5-10 crags in the southern region. Military, Left Flank, Phantasia, Sky Bridge, Funk Rock, and occasionally the Rock Wars area of Long Wall on weekends.

Everything else is deserted, and even the "popular" crags are pretty empty the majority of the year. To me all this whining about crowds and problems is comical, if you don't like crowds then go trad climbing or to the Obed in October and March. The rest of the year the Red is pretty much like any other climbing area. IMO if you are at a crowded climbing area, complaining about it, and not contributing to community events like Rfest, JATD, Muir Valley trail day, and/or TeamSuck, and/or RRGCC/FOMV, and/or picking up trash/acting as steward by watching for bad belaying/behavior at the crag, then you are also part of the so-called "problem" about which you are complaining.

The problem, BTW, is really just that people don't want to share their precious RRG crags and pick up trash from time to time. Climbing is mainstream and popular now, folks, we have to accept that and deal accordingly, or else go climb at chosspiles like the BSF.

Here's another couple for ya, Brad:

7. Dumping trash
8. 4-wheelin' (the southern region is a renowned mecca for this, arguably even more popular than the climbing!)

Id also add the stuff in natural bridge area; the zoo, emerald city, and roadside if it were still open are always packed on a good fall weekend.... I definitely think more crags would help spread the crowds out. Obviously not everyone can afford a trad rack so that is not always an option. Its really the crags that have numerous good routes that are always packed. The cliffs that have one or two good climbs within people abilities are never that crowded because who wants to spend all day driving out to the gorge region and hiking up to a crag to do one or two routes that are in the grade range you are looking to climb. Thats why its those 5-10 cliffs in muir/southern region that are always packed, numerous good quality climbs that are within a grade people are looking to climb.(usually the 9s, 10s, and 11's)

Also dolly you have no idea what you are talking about.... Youre out of your element dolly!

rhunt wrote:Can someone fill me in on what areas/walls are seening the most traffic right now. Are the crowds all from out of town elite rock stars working hard routes or is the over crowding in the moderate grade range?

If it sucks so much to come to crowded cliff every weekend, will you keep coming back? If next time you come down suddenly all off the secret climbing areas are open will you still be considering taking up trad or going to a different area in a different state? If we just disperse the crowds and it fixes the issue but we never really address the real problem are we really fixing anything?

HUH???

So what you are saying is that the problem is overcrowding, and we need people to stop coming to the red. Tell that one to all the business owners. Let them know that you want to take away from their business so that there is less of a line on your proj/warm up.

People might stop coming if the red becomes to crowded, but more new people who have never been will keep coming. So the problem never ends. More new crags is the only logical way to reduce overcrowding with out strict rules that deter people from coming and that eventually hurt local businesses.

dustonian wrote:

rhunt wrote:To me all this whining about crowds and problems is comical, if you don't like crowds then go to the Obed in October and March. )

Agreed, what I dont get is people driving up from the south who pass the obed to come climb in the red when it is packed in october. Maybe if we start promoting the obed more people will stop coming to the red