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Good discussion? You've got a confederacy of dunces asserting some kind of authority on one of the premiere sport crags in the country. You've got an engaged supportive community rebolting with real hardware and ponying up cash to buy safe steel hardware. And you've got some knuckleheads who live in a swamp trying to be big men in their silly little scene. What a sad joke.

seems like everyone needs their chance to show concern and try to take action, like any good man/woman?

You guys say I talk a lot, this topic will take hours to read. I say less talking and more climbing political cartoons.

Redpoint, props for misspelling "stealing" in your cartoon.

I'm just going to go ahead and assume it was some kind of poignant pun based on the metallurgical composition of those draws...

I have been misspelling things all day. I think all this bouldering is getting to me; I'm totally beat on my rest days. Well you gave me a good idea, here is the revised edition:

So I'm curious, what is the difference of having permanent draws on bolts. Or having un-necessary bolts in places on the majority of sport routes in the red that could be protected with gear just as safely? Are sport climbers just being lazy not taking a full rack of gear to the lode just for 1 or 2 easy cam placements. The argument is the same just at a different place in time. Eventually permanent draws will be commonplace, it is just the way it goes Zac. I understand your reasoning, but it makes me giggle just a little considering I was around climbing when porters bolts were being chopped for many of the same reasons and the same type of passion was flowing.

Personally, I'm cool with permanent draws on bolted routes. I've had a bit of progression, (or regression ) over time. First I was against "sport" climbs and bolting, ......it's going to bring all kinds of fools. But then once i had climbed a few I changed my mind and really enjoyed it, still thought for years it was cheating and more for practice. The latest change was not really that long ago....less then 10 years, I was against bolted anchors at the top of trad lines. Bad form you know, you got to top out, pull through the rodos, pricker bushes and rap off some tat that we would inspect. Now I'm cool with bolted anchors, first I thought the biggest reason was it cut down on erosion at the top which is true. But now, just nice to clip a couple of bolts and get down without bush-whacking! Call me lazy, I'm a sport wheeny.

Good luck with this one for all the passionate.

Ken

Jay wrote:Redpoint, props for misspelling "stealing" in your cartoon.

I'm just going to go ahead and assume it was some kind of poignant pun based on the metallurgical composition of those draws...

holy hilarious. +10

You can't complain about the masses...right after Rocktoberfest ... after all we invited them to help us pay for the land we are enjoying. You can't say to them the weekend is over so please go home and don't take a vacation which may include the week before or the week after. For other reasons like safety ... wasn't that the reason we bought the permadraws??? I am not sure what the right or wrong answer is to the situation but I think before taking them down there should have been a meeting of some sort which included more than just a few "crew" members...

8 PM Saturday at Miggies...let's do this.

Two unfair situations that occurred: 1. The community had something taken from them and it was not the draws, it was the sense of community. 2. Draws were left on the madness cave. Why not remove them?

/Edited to highlight my mainpoints.