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Re: Developing at a wall being developed
Posted: Mon Dec 13, 2010 2:50 am
by Clevis Hitch
rjackson wrote:Since we've "blathered" on for 7 pages, why not 8 (or more). It's cold and wet and not much going on out there so everyone should be commenting. I kinda feel ranting a little, so...
Everyone seems to think that the rock in the gorge is unlimited, so it's no big deal. I've always thought that there was a lot of rock too, but never unlimited. And I am starting to form the opinion that there really isn't a whole lot of freely accessible rock. Choice crags and hollers have been established and what is left is farther away (not necessarily bad) and usually questionable as far as legal access. I think that the days of just picking any rock and developing are definitely limited. All the pioneer developers checked it all out, and do you really think if there was another Lode, Left Flank or ESB that they would have let it go without bolting? Between BLM, private property (includes oil), NPS and State you better be prepared to be in stealth mode or become a snake oil salesman ("Why 'mam, rock climbing will cure everything and there's no reason in the world why you shouldn't let us have access to that there gorgeous holler of yours. And rock climbers are the gentlest and nicest people you'll ever meet!) Seems what we have left is some good rock in unexpected places where if you take the time to polish it, you may find a gem or two. With that said, this is why it bothers me that someone would be so blatant as to step on toes, and then only after being called on it to say "Oh, my bad..."
If Jason and Mike are square, that's cool. I think it's great that those with drills and the passion for establishing routes are a community. Everyone talks about the RRG climbing community, but most of the RRG climbers are from way-far-away and only here for a short time to poop on the trails, eat pizza and bitch about bad bolts. I haven't been involved with developing long, but IT is the real community. And there are standards that should be adhered to.
If you don't believe these things, then I would suggest that you get back in your car and drive back out west or up north or any where else where you believe you can bloody well do what you want. But if you want to stay here in the modest hills, learn to be a decent human being.
NOTE I have never met Mike and he may very well be a nice guy. I try to make it a point to not form an opinion on someone until I have met them 'and' spent some time with them. But with that said I am also aware that there are church-going child-molesters, psychpathic-drug-dealing teachers, wife beating pillars of the community and thieves amongst us who will smile in your face while their hand is in your pocket. .
I have one more thing to say about this statement. The National Forest is the largest land owner in eastern Kentucky. We (CC) were supposed to be working through this thing called Limits Of Acceptable Change. I don't think the CC ever finished the process. I think, this is just a guess now, they became landowners and lost interest in being a users group(?) Help me here, I may not have all the facts straight. I think the proccess (L.A.C.) has completely stalled.
Re: Developing at a wall being developed
Posted: Mon Dec 13, 2010 4:28 am
by JR
Joe are you familiar with the Serenity Prayer?
Re: Developing at a wall being developed
Posted: Mon Dec 13, 2010 5:17 am
by Saxman
Clevis Hitch wrote: Help me here, I may not have all the facts straight. I think the proccess (L.A.C.) has completely stalled.
Clevis shoplifts and sells meth to kids to make money. Help me here, I may not have all the facts straight. I am going to have to remember this line, it lets you spout anything you want.
Re: Developing at a wall being developed
Posted: Mon Dec 13, 2010 5:35 am
by dustonian
Re: Developing at a wall being developed
Posted: Mon Dec 13, 2010 12:19 pm
by Clevis Hitch
Saxman wrote:Clevis Hitch wrote: Help me here, I may not have all the facts straight. I think the proccess (L.A.C.) has completely stalled.
Clevis shoplifts and sells meth to kids to make money. Help me here, I may not have all the facts straight. I am going to have to remember this line, it lets you spout anything you want.
You saying this doesn't change the fact that the next step in the LAC is to be made by us (CC) and it hasn't been made...and how long have we (CC) been sitting on the next step? (thats an honest question, go ahead and answer it.)It looks like to me that the last action between the CC and the N.F. is a bolting ban instituted in 2004.
I'm not putting this all on Bill either. I think the CC priorities have changed from a users group to a land aquisition organization.
All that has to happen for climbers to be endowed with a huge chunk of land is to complete the LAC. Completion of the LAC would put the CC at odds with itself. Trying to get climbers to pay for land and free access to a shitload of land for free. Conflict of interest anyone?
Re: Developing at a wall being developed
Posted: Mon Dec 13, 2010 1:17 pm
by Meadows
Re: Developing at a wall being developed
Posted: Mon Dec 13, 2010 1:29 pm
by Clevis Hitch
Clevis Hitch wrote:...and how long have we (CC) been sitting on the next step? (thats an honest question, go ahead and answer it.)
Look, I'm tired of playing this role. So what is the next step and how can I facilitate it happening?
Re: Developing at a wall being developed
Posted: Mon Dec 13, 2010 4:23 pm
by caribe
Clevis Hitch wrote:Look, I'm tired of playing this role. So what is the next step and how can I facilitate it happening?
Find a kool line on FS land and petition to bolt it. Right now no one is asking so no body is worrying about it.
Re: Developing at a wall being developed
Posted: Mon Dec 13, 2010 9:27 pm
by Saxman
caribe wrote:Clevis Hitch wrote:Look, I'm tired of playing this role. So what is the next step and how can I facilitate it happening?
Find a kool line on FS land and petition to bolt it. Right now no one is asking so no body is worrying about it.
There does need to be a single page on the RRGCC website that goes over the LAC process (to let people who are new or who haven't cared in the past know why it has taken so freaking long on the government's and not the coalition's part), where it is now, what the current rules are now (and once the LAC process is complete) regarding development on FS land, the PMRP, and State Park Land. As a curious aside, I thought the only new climbing allowed on FS land was trad or free soloing that left no permanent anchors and was not publicized? Is this no longer the case?
Re: Developing at a wall being developed
Posted: Mon Dec 13, 2010 10:41 pm
by Clevis Hitch
Last I heard (2003) was that you could bolt at exhisting crags and not at walls that didn't have routes already on them. Then there was something about illegal trails. That's why you can't take a saw out and cut those big friggin trees out of the trail to Fortress, somebody said that the Fortress trail was illegal?(!)
I always wondered about the F.S. land in the S.R.. Far and away more land in the S.R. is owned by the N.F. than PMRP. I don't think that it should fall under the same restrictions as the Geological,Archeaological,Historical and Wilderness areas. I thought that it didn't encompass the other areas of the N.F. seing as how the southern region isn't congressionally mandated and there are oil interests all over the place. It just makes no sense to classify it all under the same LAC. Right(?)