RRC Archives

toad857 wrote:

TradMike wrote:Let's see the same person plug gear where they are making a desperate clip. It is not going to happen because it takes twice as much endurance. Sure you could skip the placement but then you will die when you try to run it out (seen it happen first hand).

Nice to see that someone's death could at least be used to bolster your credibility in the context of a retarded discussion on whether trad or sport is harder.

Climbing can be a deadly sport. If you don't think so, you should rethink what you are doing.

dustonian wrote:You'd probably dig It's a Trap! too, the top is kind of like doing Air-Ride Equipped on gear. That one may even be "soft" too for an overhanging jughaul by RRG standards... especially once it cleans up.

the new photo of this thing looks cool. looks like it takes gear well, too. cant wait to get on it

What is this trad stuff yall talkin bout. I'm down to try it as long as I can wear flip flops between burns as well as my Ed hardy cut off jeans shorts I made at the crag.

I was kinda torn up about what color Miguel's chalkbag to get but when I saw it had the "in the red" part of the logo it made more sense to just go with the red one...

I'm not sure if we can make any kind of blanket statements like "trad is harder than sport!" or vice versa, but here are a few variables:

(long post ahead, I'm bored...)

First off, to validly compare traditional and sport climbs, we have to eliminate the mental factor, since obviously most trad is harder if you are fiddling in gear, running it out, etc. But so what? Sport would be harder if we contrived rules about having to climb the whole thing with a rabid wolverine shoved down your pants, but that doesn't make it an inherently more difficult discipline. The question would better be asked, "What is easier, toproping a 5.x sport climb, or a 5.x trad climb?" In theory, toproping Coexistence at the Gunks, Breakfast Burrito at the Red, The Wave at Indian Creek, and Lunatic Fringe in Yosemite should all feel about the same, since they're all .10+ lines.

This obviously isn't true, though, for several reasons. The moves on Breakfast Burrito are objectively easier by any standard than those on Co-Ex, and anyone who disagrees is just trying to posture and stroke their trad ego with "oh, I don't think it's so bad, THAT's how badass I am!" language. It's a sort of hipster reaction of false modesty in the face of the predominant "WOO trad is so HARD!" attitude that most climbers have today. But it's objectively wrong.

First off, there has been some grade inflation; when many trad AND SPORT lines went up in the 70s and 80s (whether at Smith Rock, City of Rocks, T-Wall, or the Gunks), the attitude was that 11+/12- was HARD. Really hard. Like, old school ground-up 5.11 climbers would finally give in to ethical compromises, rap bolt or hangdog a line, and say "holy shit, that was the hardest thing I've ever done, I'll bet it is a 12a!" This is a huge ideological difference from the current attitude of "ok, this is the warmup for our radguy steep crag, and warmups always get 12a!" Again, for comparison, think Tacit at the RRG versus Bombs Over Tripoli at City of Rocks, both 12a sport lines. I don't care how good your footwork is or how bad your endurance is, Bombs is objectively harder in every sense. It's not sport versus trad, it's just that grades have gotten a bit softer in many areas.

Second, most trad lines take different techniques that many sport lines do not hone you on. I'm not just talking about basic splitter jams; I'm talking about butt scums, mantels, smears, stems, chimneys, weird presses in every direction imaginable. So, when someone honed at sport areas that require classic face or steep techniques is faced with something like the right shoulder scum on the crux of Replicant at the NRG, they will think it is really hard.

I think that when Kris/512OW/whoever makes statements like "5.11 cracks are easier than 5.11 Sport," this is 1. a bit of the egosturbating that I mentioned above, and 2. ONLY in reference to pure splitter cracks.

Here's the one exception to the "trad moves are usually harder than sport moves" argument. Pure splitter cracks, such as those at the Creek, actually are objectively a bit easier than similarly graded sport lines, if as I mentioned above, you eliminate the gear placement factor (which is not that hard in splitters anyway), and just compare toprope runs. And, as Indian Creek pioneer Steve Hong (and Trotter, Honnold, Berthoud) have all said, jamming technique is EASY compared to the subtleties of face climbing technique. This is why so many 5.14 (or hell, 5.13) sportos go to the Creek, take a few days to learn basic jamming, and then crush all the hard lines there. Conversely, while it's not as common as seeing sportos failing on trad, Indian Creek 12+ hardmen have been known to get bouted on sport climbs that require even a bit of v2 power.

(I suspect that the reason for so many Indian Creek featherbags is that, when it was first being explored, the concept of purely endurance jamming was pretty foreign to most climbers coming from Eldo or Yosemite. It really is the crack equivalent of the RRG; no hard moves, but the most perfect jams that you'll ever fall out of.)

But, Indian Creek is not illustrative of trad climbing at all. It's a super-niche area. Seasoned trad climbers from all over can go there to perfect jamming skills, then go on to wield these skills to great effect in their home areas. But someone who has learned to climb just at Indian Creek is going to fucking die if they try to go climb similar grades at Eldo, the Gunks, Yosemite, Seneca, etc.

So yeah, end of dissertation. CLIFFNOTES SUMMARY: Even when eliminating the obvious mental factors of trad climbing, routes at most trad areas tend to be harder and less intuitive than those at most sport areas on a move-by-move basis. Anyone who tells you differently either climbs at Indian Creek, or wants you to think that he is really rad.

^^^ That's the only intelligent post so far. Are you sure you're on the right web site?

I'll throw in my outsider's two cents, even though I think the whole issue was well summarized in the short essay on the previous page.
I agree that perhaps the mental factor shouldn't be considered in an objective debate over whether one style's grading is stiffer than the other, but at the same time, my own experience with both trad and sport makes it almost impossible for me to ignore it.

It seems obvious to me from the way a lot of you have been discussing trad climbing that you haven't had the chance to really experience what an old school trad area really is like.

I started rock climbing in the mid-90s. The first thing I learned was how to set up a top rope anchor on a tree (there were no climbing gyms, or at least none that I knew existed). Then I learned trad climbing. Basically my 'mentor' threw his rack over my shoulder, pointed to a 5.8 chimney in the Dacks and said: "here you go, your turn, put these cam thingies in cracks when they fit. If none fit, just keep on climbing son! See you at the top." I'll spare you the details of that horrific climb. I'll just say that in the Dacks, every climbing day felt epic, stressful, often terrorizing, always humbling. The first guidebook I used of this place probably topped at 5.10. Our 5.9 projects would give me nightmares. I never really had the balls for it. After every weekend I would vow to never climb again.

Then I started university and I actually did stop for a few years. When I started climbing again, Rumney was the rage and there were even some new local sport crags near my place. I never looked back. I even sold my rack.

Anyway, to come back to the question: does the added mental stress of placing gear, of running it out, of carrying 15 extra pounds of dangling metal objects that get stuck everywhere, of potentially falling on tenuous gear, in the middle of a chimney, right above ledge, does all that contribute to making the objective grade harder? Maybe not. But does it make the climb feel harder? Hell yea. Call it the subjective grade if you want. And really I don't care whether the grades in trad and sport are objectively similar or not. All I care about is the fact that one feels wayyyy harder than the other, simply because with age, my balls shrunk.

Pushing grades in trad requires balls and nerves (in the Dacks for sure. Don't know about Indian Creek). Pushing grades in sport requires fitness.

Oh, and by the way, trad is gettin popular again.

Putting up trad routes is easy, fun and hassle-free. No tedious rap inspections, cleaning, drilling or god-forbid "projecting". Just grab a rope, some slings, a few pieces and go for a hike. http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid= ... =1&theater If it's not the latest fad, it should be.

Trad grades aren't harder, they just feel more insecure than sport lines of similar grades. Do you think 5.12 slab feels as hard as 5.12 overhang? Probably. Why? Because the moves are insecure and fragile.

There's nothing complicated about grabbing a half pad crimp at a 45 degree angle and yarding to the next for 80 feet. Either you have the strength or you don't. You fall when you pump out, not when your shoulder smear fails.

One of the first 5.11 sport climbs I did after 10 years of climbing cracks in the Red was Bandolier. It felt hard as shit and a complete rush. I remember staring up at the next bolt knowing that I had no choice but to climb to it or hang. No walking cams up. The movement felt sketchy too. During that same time period Windy Corner felt so easy I considered soloing it. But Jack the Ripper was always hard as shit because of how thin and insecure it felt.

Offwidth can also feel terribly insecure which makes it feel hard. But when you realize that all of that flesh making contact with the rock is actually very stable you can relax and the grade will feel easier.

I don't think insecurity should add to the grade. There's a reason Mike Williams (hardcore NRG climber) thinks some of the vert lines at the Red feel overgraded. He has just become so comfortable with the insecurity of pulling on small holds and using friction and edging which allows him to see the true grade of a vert climb without the added element of "grade inflation through inexperience and insecurity" that most of us seem to factor in.