RRC Archives

maine wrote:The problem with the gym is it creates a larger number of people introduced to the sport who are NOT prepared for the challenges and differences in climbing outside.

90% of the people who come into a gym have no desire to climb outside. These people come to the gym once a year at most and even when they have paid their money, they spend most of their time in the gym watching other people climb.

I think the real problem here is that the margin of error is very slim even for beginners. Compare skateboarding for example- you have to be a really good skateboarder before you can do a trick that has any real fatal risk. With climbing, you can kill yourself on your first day.

Our nanny-culture teaches people that if something is available, then there must be a safety net somehow. Otherwise it would not be available. And those that advocate "dumbing-down" the climbs are really just asking for via-ferrata style climbing.

wheelis wrote:After reading this thread, I bought a helmet. (Meteor III.)

you made a GREAT choice! fits great and is nice and cool.

PS. Miguel's has been having sales on all helmets for 15% off! buy local and get a discount*

*i'm not sure if this special is still going on, PM Local for information

Couple of thoughts:

Most head injuries from impact force are classed "closed head injuries" and do not involve immediate bleeding requiring surgical decompression; rather are coup-contracoup tissue damage of the brain leading to delayed neuron death, edema, and disability or death from secondary ischemia of the brain. This evolves over days and is, I believe, the probable mechanism of death in the last terrible accident here. (don't know the medical particulars of that situation) Rapid (1st hour) treatment can ameliorate some of the damage.

Potential multiple trauma is notoriously difficult to evaluate in the field, partly as visible or painful wounds may overshadow less obvious but life-threatening injuries - example of C-spine injury previously noted. That is why mechanism of injury is the criteria used to determine necessity of EMS transport. Generally, a 15' fall is considered criteria for potential serious injury. I have seen a death from a 12' (non-climbing) fall.

If any doubt, take the ride! Arriving alive on a backboard will also markedly reduce your ER waiting time, right Bob? And just for cost comparison, a below knee prosthetic leg costs about $25,000. half of which will be paid by most insurers; by the time you are ready for it you will probably have reached your lifetime max on your policy anyway...

I'm gonna start wearing my helmet too, carried it all last weekend on my pack like an idiot.

climb2core wrote:

2.) Was the fall preventable by belaying/spotting? That is a difficult question to answer, however, I can offer the following observations: CLee fell approximately 6 ft. back from the base of the wall and landed on a large, flat boulder that was approximately 2 1/2 to 3 ft. high. This has several implications... a.) Spotting would have been likely been ineffective in this instance as the logical place to spot seemed to be at the base of the climb. b.) The belayer was standing at the base of ther crag (base upon rope bag placement and first hand accounting of the fall) c.) Catching a blown second clip by the belayer became even m,ore challenging based upon the fact that CLee landed approx. 3 ft. higher than ground level where the belayer was standing at the base of the crag. Based upon the observations, I doubt that better belaying or spotting could have prevented the ground fall.

Ian

The above statement confuses me given the start of Breakfast Burrito is not 6 ft overhung. How could she have landed 6 ft from the wall unless there was a bad belay/spot, and/or she jumped away from the wall. Given the location of a rock at that distance(Its been a year since I have been at drive-by) the proper place to belay should be between climber and obstacles. Correct me if I am wrong.

$25,000! Yar, I got ripped off I did. Yar.

Rapid (1st hour) treatment can ameliorate some of the damage.

If you fall in the gorge I get the feeling by the time you get to Lexington it will be more like 2-3 hours. The "golden hour" is lost. Some of the stuff Muir Valley is doing could significantly lessen the time but 1 hour is nearly impossible

I take a small exception with blaming gyms/gym owners for the scores of unprepared climbers that go outside... It's not their job, and opens them up to greater liabilities should they engage in training and instruction for the outdoors (that is why God created AMGA guides). Their duty and obligation is to protect the climbers in their gym. You can't hold them accountable for the scores of people that assume that gym climbing is sufficient instruction for the outdoors. "So how do we get the rope down?"...

That said, the gym IS a good touch point for beginners who wish to go outside to progress or experience climbing even more... It is a missed opportunity for the RRGCC and others to touch these beginners with posters or pamphlets and information as to what to expect when they venture outdoors. I'm not talking about instruction, I'm talking about a flyer or a poster that says, "Hey Gumby, BEFORE you go outside, can you 1. Clean a route? 2. Belay properly? 3. Lead properly?"... Like a checklist even... you could include advice to seek professional guidance, LNT, first aid, etc. You could even put this in local gear shops. Just a thought... Until people are forced to confront their inadequacies, they are frequently ignorant to the true implications of these failings. Perhaps even a posting of accident reports from incidents in the RRG and surrounding areas... That should perk up a few ears.

Vertical1, I understand your line of questioning.... by 15 feet up the climb may only be overhung by a foot or two. I can only tell you what I saw. My. Assumption is she had body tension and was leaning back. I think traveling an additional 4-5 ft after her hand popped off is plausible. Again, I am stating what I saw as accurately as I can recollect...

so how did she get the rope burn??

rhunt wrote:so how did she get the rope burn??

Well most rope burns sustained during a fall are due to rope management error, letting the rope get behind the climber above the last fixed point... but again this is only speculation.