Hey Sandbagger

[allen]

i thought the first 20ft of science friction was harder than super slab...

[gripster]

I am the last person who should suggest a grade because my extreme height and strength really skews my perception.

But here is my 2 cents any way. Each grade has variation to it, and it has to because of peoples individual strengths and weakness, but also because if it didn't we would have a million grades. As Heavyc said, there has to be soft and hard routes in each grade, but if a route clearly fits into a lower grade it should be moved.

Solution: Each route should have a "Grade Table", that relates the grade to your relative height and ape index, bone structure (some people are big-boned, right?), etc.

Get on that Ray.

[Andrew]

I like this, since climbing is way harder if your tall, I am going to get some really hard sends.

[Lateralus]

As long as a guidebook is consistent at any given area it's win! The consistency is the hard part though as everyone knows. The system most of us use was invented in the 30's basically to let tourists know they weren't walking in the park anymore. I don't think Fred and Wilma from the Sierra club foresaw the specialization which has blossomed in our past time/sport. How many different samples must be taken before a consensus is achieved or considered somewhat accurate? --- got to have some type of standard to base the samples on-- need to ... never mind who gives a shit? kind of an interesting thing to consider though, if you are on a rest day or something. what would be the perfect type of rating system? It would have to suit each person somehow but not differentiate enough to be meaningless to the next. Probably next to impossible.

[Brentucky]

Some more that others already mentioned that stand out in my recent memory as being soft (as in soft enough to warrant a grade change) since I climb right near the grade of them at my peak...

J'Rat's Back... NOT 12a, but I'm not sure that it's 11c either, 11d sounds pretty good.

Beef Stick... too many rests and not hard enough moves to match up to the other soft 12a's and/or 11d's I've been on

Recoil, 11c, and probably a soft 11c at that

Hippocrite is misspelled and made me lose an argument b/c I made the mistake of claiming the online guide in my mind as the Holy Know All that it is becoming. Whaddup with that?

Other than that I have no major malfunctions for downgrades. I'm still trying to learn what a 5.12 is supposed to feel like.

Ray, I hope you don't downgrade "The Stranger." I like that climb, and I want 12a points for it when I go back to give it hell dammit! If you do downgrade it at least make it real good, like 11c. Then at least pawilkes will curse a little too.

[caribe]

I am not bent out of shape about this thread. The Red is my home crag. I have climbed elsewhere and found the grades equitable. If I go elsewhere and find the grades easy compared to the Red due to current grade changes (sandbagging or honest grades whichever side of the discussion you be on) that won't be bad at all. Local redefinition of scale is meaningless. The grade does its job: The grade is a conversation piece; the grade is a descriptor; the grade is an 800 lb gorilla in the room; the grade is Humphrey Bogart's cigarette.

[Andrew]

Why are we only talking about the 5.12 grade and the upper 5.11 grade.

There are tons of soft tens that need significant down grading.

[tbwilsonky]

Why are we only talking about the 5.12 grade and the upper 5.11 grade.

There are tons of soft tens that need significant down grading.

finally someone says what we've all been thinking.

thank you.

[Wes]

Recoil, 11c, and probably a soft 11c at that

I would be OK with calling all four routes on the 11 wall 11b.

The start of fuzzy looks pretty hard now, though it wasn't a stump, it was a big rock that used to be there. The start of Tissue is going to get way harder once that stump goes as well. Too many puppies used to have a stump, now the start is the crux, though doesn't really change the grade.

Good discussion - I agree with the not downrating, so much as right grading.

Oh, and just so the traddies don't feel too left out - windy corner to the first set is probably 10d/11a ish

Spider wand is more 10b/c rather then 10d.

[clif]

for what it's worth, i think of Bandolier and Hen-ry as THE standards of what makes an 11a. (along with whatever that climb is with R. Babkirk at the New on the cover of the guidebook..)

Discombobulated.

Anyway, you'd be 'Further' messing with my head.