R/X applies to all types of routes....bolted or not. That component of the rating system has been around for decades.
Whimpering Insanity has an X rating and it's a face route. What makes any other bolted route different?
Bad Lead Falls
Seems to me that the R's and X's should be reserved for hazards that cannot be seen from the ground, or that you couldn't see until it was too late. If you slap an X-rating on Pogue, pretty soon every route in the gorge will have an X. Then someone will start a group, Mothers Against Rock Climbing, then the crags will start getting closed down even faster. Hate to see poor Gretchen fighting all those Mothers. Wait, that might be fun to watch....
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Don McGlone
- Posts: 567
- Joined: Thu Nov 14, 2002 11:16 pm
Technically, every route has potential for death. If your belayer sucks or you do something stupid like forget to clip the first three bolts.
Alot of things are obvious, but maybe in the description there should be small mention to possible problems. I don't think we should start adding x's and R's to everything.
Alot of things are obvious, but maybe in the description there should be small mention to possible problems. I don't think we should start adding x's and R's to everything.
Living the dream
I agree that adding Rs and Xs to any route with groundfall potential would make us crazy but for routes like the route left of Skin Flute I think it is warranted. So, what Kato said makes sense. I'm glad someone informed me of the dangers on that route before I lead it.
Yo Ray jack dynomite! Listen to my beat box! Bew ch ch pff BEW ch ch pfff! Sweet!
-Horatio
-Horatio
I'd be reluctant to attach R or X to a sport route. If the danger is really that high for a route with fixed gear, then the route should be re-bolted. I don't think a possible grounder from the second bolt means much because that kind of danger is obvious. In the same way, I don't think you need to tell a climber to stick clip the first bolt or not.
I'd say a specific warning (like the ledge on the route left of Skin Flute, perhaps?) would be helpful but not necessary. Do always have a warning become overkill. For example, you'd then be pressed to say that on a route with a traverse (eg. Arachnid) the leader could possibly swing back into a dihedral or something.
I'd warn if a route required more than a 60m rope to get down, or if anchors/trees are suspect and the leader needs to prepare for an unusual descent (like the note on Whistle Driller that there is only a one bolt anchor. The climber can then be ready to bring leaver gear to back up the rappel. But that's more of a matter of convenience than pure safety.
R and X have traditionally been left for gear that may not hold a fall or is particulary difficult to place. The leader is then faced with a fall that would be much larger than expected due to gear popping out. I would presume that unless the bolt is actually bad, or in bad rock, the "gear" itself is not R or X since there is little chance of failure. Thus, the fall would be what the leader would normally calculate in factoring risk.
That's just my thoughts. I acknowledge that it's a very gray area and subject to interpretation.
I'd say a specific warning (like the ledge on the route left of Skin Flute, perhaps?) would be helpful but not necessary. Do always have a warning become overkill. For example, you'd then be pressed to say that on a route with a traverse (eg. Arachnid) the leader could possibly swing back into a dihedral or something.
I'd warn if a route required more than a 60m rope to get down, or if anchors/trees are suspect and the leader needs to prepare for an unusual descent (like the note on Whistle Driller that there is only a one bolt anchor. The climber can then be ready to bring leaver gear to back up the rappel. But that's more of a matter of convenience than pure safety.
R and X have traditionally been left for gear that may not hold a fall or is particulary difficult to place. The leader is then faced with a fall that would be much larger than expected due to gear popping out. I would presume that unless the bolt is actually bad, or in bad rock, the "gear" itself is not R or X since there is little chance of failure. Thus, the fall would be what the leader would normally calculate in factoring risk.
That's just my thoughts. I acknowledge that it's a very gray area and subject to interpretation.
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deleted username
- Posts: 229
- Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2002 2:25 am
Straightedge at Pebble looks friggin deadly for the first 3 clips. Is it a sport route or a bolted route? There is a difference.
In a place like Table Rock or Stone Mt. you expect long run-outs between bolts, but the Red has many facets... old classic trad, death routes, old classic sport, new grid bolting, overhanging falls into space, slabby falls onto ledges... this makes it harder for the visitor to appreciate the dangers since folks tend to assume all routes will be similar in nature. "Oh, it's a RRG bolted route, it's just like AWOL".
Also, many climbers assume that you have to pass a test or be in a special club in order to be able to bolt a route. Any gumby with a Dewalt can drill holes and place bolts. Assume nothing is safe!!
In a place like Table Rock or Stone Mt. you expect long run-outs between bolts, but the Red has many facets... old classic trad, death routes, old classic sport, new grid bolting, overhanging falls into space, slabby falls onto ledges... this makes it harder for the visitor to appreciate the dangers since folks tend to assume all routes will be similar in nature. "Oh, it's a RRG bolted route, it's just like AWOL".
Also, many climbers assume that you have to pass a test or be in a special club in order to be able to bolt a route. Any gumby with a Dewalt can drill holes and place bolts. Assume nothing is safe!!
:: I may be weak, but I have bad technique!! ::
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captain static
- Posts: 2438
- Joined: Mon Oct 07, 2002 6:05 pm
When Seneca Rocks was my "home" crag, the X designation was called a "Standard Death Fall". Such a situation could occur if the run-out past your last piece before a crux was such that if you blew the crux you would deck. It would seem that such a situation would be rare on a sport climb and that if it occurred, there is something wrong with the bolt placements? John's guide does a good job of describing inherently dangerous situations that may be encountered on a route. I think that the inclusion of any description of inherent dangers should assume that the users of the guide are knowlegable, competent climbers.
"Be responsible for your actions and sensitive to the concerns of other visitors and land managers. ... Your reward is the opportunity to climb in one of the most beautiful areas in this part of the country." John H. Bronaugh
Don - Dragon Slayer is a great example. You will deck if you fall at the second bolt.
It just seems to me that a climber may want to know that about DS. I mean, sure, you *should* be able to look at it and see but sometimes sport climbing is approached more casually...not saying that's a good thing but that's how it seems to me. I know that I sometimes just assume a sport route is safely bolted and climb it without looking at every bolt. I look at the route, sure, but I look more for the crux, number of bolts, and where the anchors are. Knowing that about DS gives me the ability to choose some different options if I feel like I'm going to fall; I can either grab the quick draw and clip or down climb a move or two to bring me closer the first bolt.
Obviously, pendulumns or any other potentially dangerous falls are just part of climbing. I'm more looking for routes that are straight up sport routes with not so obvious bad falls. Isn't there a beginner climb at Left Flank that has bad falls?
It just seems to me that a climber may want to know that about DS. I mean, sure, you *should* be able to look at it and see but sometimes sport climbing is approached more casually...not saying that's a good thing but that's how it seems to me. I know that I sometimes just assume a sport route is safely bolted and climb it without looking at every bolt. I look at the route, sure, but I look more for the crux, number of bolts, and where the anchors are. Knowing that about DS gives me the ability to choose some different options if I feel like I'm going to fall; I can either grab the quick draw and clip or down climb a move or two to bring me closer the first bolt.
Obviously, pendulumns or any other potentially dangerous falls are just part of climbing. I'm more looking for routes that are straight up sport routes with not so obvious bad falls. Isn't there a beginner climb at Left Flank that has bad falls?