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i tend to have that effect on most people...especially women...they just skip right past me. who's up for a sympathy lay? tray?

I remember when this same discussion occurred 10 years ago except the question was, "Is it a redpoint if the draws are prehung?" My how things change!

Answers, none of which are completely correct or incorrect, varied back then just like today. Its all situational ethics (oxymoron intended) as SCIN said. I can say this though. Anytime you stick clip bolt 1 thru X, you aren't climbing the same route as doing it from the ground. The same can be said if you have any/all draws pre-hung.

True. You know you have truely done a route when you do it hanging the draws. That seems definitive to me. And to take it to a more absurd standard, do the route hanging the draws and then down climb the route cleaning the route. Now that is definitive.

This post reminds me of a time when I realized my "friend" climbing partner really wasn't my friend.

I'd been working this crack (Drug Pusher) for some time at Wall of Denial. It was way above my head at the time. It's a roof so it's a bitch to downclean. I finally unlocked the sequence after a few weekends of driving down from Cincy. Hell, I even practiced one-arm pullups because I thought it would help.

So I took my "friend" down to the Red and we went out there to work on it together. Near the end of the day, after falling and going to the top, I lowered and cleaned all but a single cam in the roof which is easily placeable. Sure as shit I took a rest and fired that damn route to the anchors. I was more excited than I'd ever been since I started climbing. It was one of those moments when you just feel like going home and drinking a case of beer because you feel so good.

Well, I lower to the ground, smiles galore, and my "friend" says:
"So, are you going to lead it now?"

In my mind I had done it. I was too lazy to back clean a single, easily placed cam. His comment was the biggest buzz kill. I've done the route placing all of my gear since but to me the first ascent was still when I did it the first time. I don't care what he said.

So, unless you're competing for sponsorships or money what really matters is how you feel about your send. If you can't sleep at night because you don't feel you really did a line because you had a long draw hanging, the draws pre-hung, bolt number whatever stick clipped, your foot resting on a cam inside the crack, taking advantage of the slight tension in the rope while shaking out, etc. etc. then you need to do the route again the right way. Climbing is only for yourself. That's all that matters.

I guess that answers that.

SCIN wrote: If you can't sleep at night because you don't feel you really did a line because you had a long draw hanging, the draws pre-hung, bolt number whatever stick clipped, your foot resting on a cam inside the crack, taking advantage of the slight tension in the rope while shaking out, etc. etc. then you need to do the route again the right way. Climbing is only for yourself. That's all that matters.

Thats really well put. The only person you have to convinve is yourself. If someone has a problem with the style I do something, second bolt clipped on so and so route (4th bolt on triple sec), using a hueco rest, etc thats to bad. They can do what ever they want when its their turn to climb.

Just curious Andrew. Do you think the fourth bolt is o.k.? What are your thoughts on the matter????

Where do you buy a stick clip long enough for the fourth?

SCIN wrote: So, unless you're competing for sponsorships or money what really matters is how you feel about your send. If you can't sleep at night because you don't feel you really did a line because you had a long draw hanging, the draws pre-hung, bolt number whatever stick clipped, your foot resting on a cam inside the crack, taking advantage of the slight tension in the rope while shaking out, etc. etc. then you need to do the route again the right way. Climbing is only for yourself. That's all that matters.

Amen

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