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I am probably over my head here making this comment/asking this question and respectfully I ask because I am very confused. I also see that this action on behalf of the RRGCC will do well in repairing and reconciling Charmagne and the Climbing Community.

My question/comment for Bill and others who will know is: "If Charmagne Oil has mineral rights to the oil beneath the surface of the land, are they also held responsible for the maintenance of the land, i.e. roads and other infrastructural elements?" Also, why have we decided to give the Oil Company our money to maintain roads that should be maintained by Charmagne if question number one is true?"

Again, please don't hear my comments as being dissenting from the community's desire for a well-worked for reconciliation and progress. I just want clarification.

I also concur with JR's post that no matter where you go drive responsibly and don't tear up stuff.

Looking forward to the flames...

Good questions.

That is actually a county road, so technically neither the RRGCC or Charmagne should be maintaining it. That said, a little good will goes a long way.

ElectricDisciple wrote:My question/comment for Bill and others who will know is: "If Charmagne Oil has mineral rights to the oil beneath the surface of the land, are they also held responsible for the maintenance of the land, i.e. roads and other infrastructural elements?" Also, why have we decided to give the Oil Company our money to maintain roads that should be maintained by Charmagne if question number one is true?"

Except for the County Road, the other roads were put in by the oil company to access their wellheads, tanks, etc. Their complaint is that that the climber traffic causes additional wear and thus additional expense that they would not otherwise incur. Working with Charmane to defer this additional expense is common courtesy.

Also, Charmane's responibility for maintaining infrastructure is not general. For instance if the RRGCC built an office on the property and put in its' own driveway to it, Charmane would not be responsible for maintaining that driveway.

Sure, if the RRGCC puts up an office with a driveway it wouldn't be Charmane's responsibility to maintain it. No one would dare suggest that. But Charmane owns the mineral rights, not the surface. If they put up roads for their own use then the land owner also has the right to use those roads but not the responsibility to maintain them. Isn't that correct? I think it's great that the BOD is willing to allocate RRGCC funds to help defer those costs, but I'm not sure I'd be so willing to be courteous to Charmane after the illegal gates they put up, and the copious amounts of time and money spent in court because of them...

Edit: I should add, however, that I certainly would not ask the oil co workers to move just so I could drive by to get to a crag. Especially not if I didn't have beer to give them for their trouble.

So ...um..gee..will we mere mortals ...you know...get to ..umm..climb at the arena any time soon? Oh god im sorry...forget I asked that..im sorry. Nevermind. Yes! The road thing is good!

Pru wrote:Charmane owns the mineral rights, not the surface. If they put up roads for their own use then the land owner also has the right to use those roads but not the responsibility to maintain them. Isn't that correct? ...

Yes, that is correct. We have the right to access our property using thes roads and they have a responsibility to maintain them. Again, this decision was made out of common courtesy after hearing Charmane's concerns about increased maintenance costs.

Your mention of the gates reminded me that we have also agreed that Charmane will put in a gate across the Drive-By road that both parties will be able to unlock. Some climbers are still driving all the way up the road instead of parking in the designated area. If you see a sign that says "Authorized Vehicles Only" don't go on that road. According to Mr. Stamper, someone apparently drove past the turnoff for the Sore Heel parking and hit some oil equipment when they were turning around. This caused an oil spill that was fortunately discovered and cleaned up quickly by Charmane.

I was at chica bonita recently and saw a climbers vehicle parked at the very top by the trail..does that count as an abuse of the private roads?

Bill:

Should climbers be made aware of contact information should a spill or other hazardous situation arise? Something like a phone number posted notifying the proper way of handling a situation like this?

Definitely. I'll pass that on to Mark.

pigsteak wrote:I was at chica bonita recently and saw a climbers vehicle parked at the very top by the trail..does that count as an abuse of the private roads?

sounds like a bunch of worthless hippies.