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chriss, Don't know you at all, but from your post YOU ARE A JACKASS! Perhaps you are trying to make some crude joke out of it. Mark and Kathy have done so much over the years for climbing. If you are pissed off perhaps you can take it out on the real issue.........climbers that can't pitch in a couple of bucks, pick up there trash, keep the screaming down, keep there dogs under control, and respecting the landowners wishes.

Mark and Kathy, thanks a bunch, I would have liked to see it stay open along with most climbers. But with all the BS and disrespect (as the owner) you have had to put up with over the years I can feel for you.

Ken

People!

Climbing is still available at Torrent. Stay at one of the cabins as a guest of Torrent Cabins are permitted to climb. I've never climbed there but when I make a return visit from PA, I'll seriously consider staying there. My visits will be for extended stays instead of what they use to be when I lived in Louisville. I'll be coming down for a climbing vacation instead of a one day trip.

I have had the pleasure of eating several BBQ sandwiches there and hope these will still be available.

I've been climbing in the Red for about four years now, and Torrent Falls was one of the first crags I'd ever visited, and has been an area that I've re-vistited with some frequency. Additionally, I've stayed at the b&b on (3 weekends in four years) occasions. Perhaps it's been that I typically don't climb at Torrent on weekends (although I have climbed there on weekends), but in the four years I've been climbing I haven't really seen behavior that I would classify as egregious, and definately none that I would call malicious. As a general observation, behavior there has seemed on par with that you'd see at any crag. At least by the climbers. Except for the donation box. That isn't an issue climbers face anywhere else in the Red, and in my limited travels, I've only seen two areas with fees, so the donation model is definately not the "expected situation" when one is out climbing. Not that that is an excuse for not donating, but I just never thought it was really clear if donations really were donations or not. How is it really a donation if it's expected? Semantics. This is especially true if you don't read these boards frequently.

So the question is, was typical climbing behavior only unnaceptable at Torrent due to it's duel nature as crag/buisness? Or should there be a major effort to educate climbers in Leave No Trace policy and general friendliness at all crags? Although I have to say when I visit other crags I am never struck by the damage done by climbers nor by a lack of goodwill. Hell, hike out to Eagle Point or Wall of Denial, or Half Moon. Then go to a crag not visited by non-climbing tourists and compare the state of the landscape. I promise you'll see a major major difference, and not a positive one. What I'm asking is, how is it that we take care of crags like Pebble Beach, but we litter, curse, and let our dogs run wild around Torrent? This comment is meant both to be a question and somewhat tounge in cheek.

The majority of the sentiment on this board has been to vilfy ourselves and our community and to thank Mark and his family for putting up with our crap. The one dissedent poster got called a JACK ASS (which was very constructive). I'm not saying that we shouldn't examine the behaviour of the climbing community for areas of improvement. However, it seems clear that there are issues here that never really got worked out with the land owner, and one can't help but feel they were mostly economic in nature. I think it's perfectly reasonable for some resentment towards an individual who would profit (though how much I don't know) from an access oriented event and then immediately close his property to climbing. It seems very disingenuous. I wonder if I am one of the few who feels this way, or if it's the sentiment no one wants to express for fear of further pissing Mark off.

kneebar wrote:chriss, Don't know you at all, but from your post YOU ARE A JACKASS! Perhaps you are trying to make some crude joke out of it.

I think we have a difference of opinion is all. I'm not sure how that makes me a jackass, maybe your narrow minded for not respecting others opinions. I haven't climbed at Torrent for over 4 months because I thought less impact would be good, before that I always made it a point to let others know of the rules while I was there.


I just don't think that this needs to be a group hug session. I'm thankful they kept it open for so long, but I'm not all smiles because they closed it.

Chris

Woohoo, now we have a private crag. Can't wait to climb alone on those perfect spring days while all of the other crags are swarming with gumbies.

[quote="absolutsugarsmurfbut in the four years I've been climbing I haven't really seen behavior that I would classify as egregious, and definately none that I would call malicious. As a general observation, behavior there has seemed on par with that you'd see at any crag. At least by the climbers. . However, it seems clear that there are issues here that never really got worked out with the land owner, and one can't help but feel they were mostly economic in nature. I think it's perfectly reasonable for some resentment towards an individual who would profit (though how much I don't know) from an access oriented event and then immediately close his property to climbing. .[/quote]

Issues that didn't get worked out???you think. The issues were put in black and white and people still didn't respect the situation. The land owner made numerous attempts to be fair. "On Par with other cliffs." Yeah other cliffs suk because of the screaming and the dogs, and all the other BS. Torrent was a nice haven after the rules. Why do you need to scream FUCK when you fall. just proves your a wanker.
Also the property was not closed "IMMeDIATLY after an access event. rOCTOBERfest, not NOVEMBERfest. Mark still supported us. will he in the future?? that is up to him. If he doesn't fine, his choice. None of the other buisness that don't support climbing get bashed. I wouldn't support a bunch of inconsiderate, slack-jaw, number spraying fuk sticks either. In the end it's there land and there choice. Roadside could be closed as well. And those folks are climbers. so don't bash someone for protecting their intrests. i worked for the family for three years and they were always climber friendly, straightforward, and all around great folks who would do anything for people that treated them fairly. I guess we as a whole weren't too fair. No quit whining about torrent being closed and go get some other cliff shut down.
jr

chriss wrote:

kneebar wrote:chriss, Don't know you at all, but from your post YOU ARE A JACKASS! Perhaps you are trying to make some crude joke out of it.

"I think we have a difference of opinion is all. I'm not sure how that makes me a jackass, maybe your narrow minded for not respecting others opinions. I haven't climbed at Torrent for over 4 months because I thought less impact would be good, before that I always made it a point to let others know of the rules while I was there."


I just don't think that this needs to be a group hug session. I'm thankful they kept it open for so long, but I'm not all smiles because they closed it.

Okay, I'll take back the calling you a jackass in general if that is how you took it,..........it was just a jackass thing to say none the less which is what I intended IMO. Without knowing you I can only go by what you post! So instead of saying anything about how much you enjoyed climbing at torrent for however long you did, you only spew the negative in your original post.

I just don't really get it, private land, nice folks, we climbed there for years, not much was asked of us. The guys house and income is like what 200' from the 11 wall! Not like Mark was rolling in the cash from climbers.

i'll definitely have to consider a cabin at torrent at some point, because Lord knows i have a ton of stuff left unsent at torrent!
and i do apologize...as a lead climbing wussie, i am sure i let out a panicky "SHIT!" at some point as i took some three-foot whipper at torrent...definitely not on purpose

oh, and a stupid question perhaps, but is the BBQ still open? maybe i did not read previous posts carefully enough to find out...

the sugarsmurf wrote:

The one dissedent poster got called a JACK ASS (which was very constructive). I'm not saying that we shouldn't examine the behaviour of the climbing community for areas of improvement. However, it seems clear that there are issues here that never really got worked out with the land owner, and one can't help but feel they were mostly economic in nature.

*************
Everybody is very tolerant as long as you agree with them. Beyond that, no promises. Haha! Your point concerning economics is probably correct, but it also misses the point. For enough money, I'd let you run a crack business out of my back bedroom. But probably not for twelve bucks a day. So is me not letting you sell crack out of my house a financial issue?

Also, what's fine at the crags isn't necessarily appropriate in your living room. This, is a major part of the problem. What you're seeing is whining about people's behavior at a crag not being suitable for Sunday school. Go figure.

Somebody mentioned a while ago that all those "donated" dollars would have done a lot more good for the climbers if it had been spent developing public or co-op owned property. I agree with this.

ZSpiddy

I used to say that climbers were more intelligent than the population as a whole. I guess I haven't been associating with enough climbers because it appears we are as stupid as the rest of the United States. I used to think the problems were from a minority, but maybe that is not true. Maybe the average is now too pathetic to deserve any place to climb, let alone someone's back yard.