pigsteak
selling public land is going in the wrong direction. It is not theirs to sell. We want this land under governmental supervision for the purpose of resource management. Don't point to Muir valley and say, see... this is what will happen if we sell it. Usage deed restrictionis can't hold off people like Jack Abramoff. Will their deed restrictions allow me to climb in their back yard??!
Let's buy land and fill in the gaps instead of selling land to consolidate.
Alarmist... that's good. This is what the right said about global warming a decade ago, five years ago, last year and now there are tentative statements about the potential impact of global warming. They don't appreciate the golden opportunity presented before the tipping point occurs. Post tipping point is too late. Remember Katrina!
Bush wants to sell national land. Just say NO!
under gov't supervision. ? we blast the gov't for everything else, but now owning the land is a good idea?
do you believe in eminent domain? let's say you own that private parcel that the FS needs to "fill in the gap"..you all for them taking it in the name of "national interests"? not me.
help me out...connect the dots if you will....jack abramoff and deed restrictions..what's the connection?
caribe, how about the gov't own all the land, and we the people only lease it from them? just curious where it stops.
man, btw, i am just jerking your chain. i truly don't know the answer to this one. i do know poor folks are suffering out here because of the revenue base, and i do know selling the land is not a great idea.
do you believe in eminent domain? let's say you own that private parcel that the FS needs to "fill in the gap"..you all for them taking it in the name of "national interests"? not me.
help me out...connect the dots if you will....jack abramoff and deed restrictions..what's the connection?
caribe, how about the gov't own all the land, and we the people only lease it from them? just curious where it stops.
man, btw, i am just jerking your chain. i truly don't know the answer to this one. i do know poor folks are suffering out here because of the revenue base, and i do know selling the land is not a great idea.
Positive vibes brah...positive vibes.
I think it's just a bad response to a particular problem. It's akin to running down to the pawn shop cause you blew your budget. They hope to raise 1B but it is disgusting that this is the option when you hear things like $8Billion unaccounted for in Iraq (jeez, that was early on too). Ridiculous give aways in pork laden bills shoved through in the middle of the night.
I'm all for addressing the problems of our fractured forest on it's own terms, and the DBNF has been doing that. I don't think you'd use that argument regarding 32,000+ acres in the Klamath Nat.Forest though.
Anytime I see public land up for sale in the Black Hills I feel bad for all kinds of reasons.
I'm all for addressing the problems of our fractured forest on it's own terms, and the DBNF has been doing that. I don't think you'd use that argument regarding 32,000+ acres in the Klamath Nat.Forest though.
Anytime I see public land up for sale in the Black Hills I feel bad for all kinds of reasons.
Gulliver has a good idea, KY needs to loose 40 counties. Consolidate counties and reduce bureaucracy.
Regarding public land, National Parks should simply not be for sale. We are not at the point at which it is healthy for them to shrink.
(help me out...connect the dots if you will....jack abramoff and deed restrictions..what's the connection? ) Land will land in the possession of lumber/coal/whatever interests and they will harvest trees, top off mountains, build airports and parking lots, whatever. They will pay lobbyist who will pay legislators who will change deed restrictions. There is nothing iron clad when you head in the direction of development.[/b]
Regarding public land, National Parks should simply not be for sale. We are not at the point at which it is healthy for them to shrink.
(help me out...connect the dots if you will....jack abramoff and deed restrictions..what's the connection? ) Land will land in the possession of lumber/coal/whatever interests and they will harvest trees, top off mountains, build airports and parking lots, whatever. They will pay lobbyist who will pay legislators who will change deed restrictions. There is nothing iron clad when you head in the direction of development.[/b]
I forgot to mention oil
from:
http://www.rockclimbing.com/articles/index.php?id=2138
But now, there’s another pump threatening our sends in the Southern Region. You can hear it as you clip bolts at Drive-By Crag, smell it as you drive to the Sore Heel region and see it across from the parking lot of Solar Collector. It’s under your feet as you hike to the Dark Side. It’s even in your cars as you cruise the city. It’s Oil, with a capital O. And, it’s not just picking the money from your pocket, it’s also trying to buy the land that makes the Red famous out from under our ropes.
In October 2003, the sound of hammers striking nails proved a bitter wakeup call. Signs saying “No Trespassing” and “Keep Out” appeared on the roads and parking areas in much of the Southern Region. Charmane Oil Company posted, without permission or authority, signs intended to prevent climbers from accessing the region. Despite communication from the Coalition expressing a desire to discuss ways to resolve any conflicts, Charmane continued its aggressive stance against climbers and in December 2003 began towing cars along the county roads in the region. And while these might seem like just annoyances, Charmane also took an incredibly bold step: though it didn’t own the walls themselves, it closed climbers’ ability to access the classically pocketed faces of Arena, Oil Crack, and In-Between Walls. All told, more than 80 routes are now effectively closed at these walls. Charmane Oil doesn’t pull punches; they’ve made it abundantly clear that climbers are not wanted in the area.
from:
http://www.rockclimbing.com/articles/index.php?id=2138
But now, there’s another pump threatening our sends in the Southern Region. You can hear it as you clip bolts at Drive-By Crag, smell it as you drive to the Sore Heel region and see it across from the parking lot of Solar Collector. It’s under your feet as you hike to the Dark Side. It’s even in your cars as you cruise the city. It’s Oil, with a capital O. And, it’s not just picking the money from your pocket, it’s also trying to buy the land that makes the Red famous out from under our ropes.
In October 2003, the sound of hammers striking nails proved a bitter wakeup call. Signs saying “No Trespassing” and “Keep Out” appeared on the roads and parking areas in much of the Southern Region. Charmane Oil Company posted, without permission or authority, signs intended to prevent climbers from accessing the region. Despite communication from the Coalition expressing a desire to discuss ways to resolve any conflicts, Charmane continued its aggressive stance against climbers and in December 2003 began towing cars along the county roads in the region. And while these might seem like just annoyances, Charmane also took an incredibly bold step: though it didn’t own the walls themselves, it closed climbers’ ability to access the classically pocketed faces of Arena, Oil Crack, and In-Between Walls. All told, more than 80 routes are now effectively closed at these walls. Charmane Oil doesn’t pull punches; they’ve made it abundantly clear that climbers are not wanted in the area.
"I am downgrading this thing even though I don't send on TR." Blake while on TR
I don't think selling this land is the answer to solving the problems of some of these rural counties. Even if the land sells, will it really generate that much in property taxes? I tend to think it won't. I also don't think a major industry is going to move somewhere like Lee County. The access to major transportation routes just isn't as good as a place like Georgetown and the Toyota plant.
I don't have the answers on this, but jsut tossing some things out to consider.
I don't have the answers on this, but jsut tossing some things out to consider.
I'm an experienced woman; I've been around... well, alright, I might not've been around, but I've been... nearby.
~ Mary Richards (Mary Tyler Moore Show)
~ Mary Richards (Mary Tyler Moore Show)
This situation is pointing out the underlying problem with funding based on property taxes. This land sell-off is treating the symptoms of the problem, not the 'disease'. We need to de-link the funding of things like our transportation infrastructure and education from local property taxes. Instead we could better distribute property tax revenues across states or the nation, and shift a lot of that burden to our progressive income tax system, and potentially a VAT system. (Sorry to open the VAT-can-o-worms, but it can potentially be part of the solution.)pigsteak wrote:caribe,
who pays for the rural school teachers, the county roads, healthcare, etc when the tax base is so low in these counties?
The local property-tax based system just means that poor areas have crappy roads and underfunded schools, which helps to keep them poor. It prevents them from having an equal chance to succeed. Here in Chicago and a lot of other places, as property values go up, lots of poor folks who worked their whole lives to own a home are being taxed out of their homes. It's a screwed up system, and these sales of public lands are just a sign of that problem.
Bacon is meat candy.