Ummm... 9+ IS 2 letter grades from 10b. So it would work fine with Ray's 2 grade change.flyinglow wrote:I'm really not trying to be difficult, but i can think of one route off the top of my head where consensus is quite a bit below the original rating.
(pogue ethics was originally 10b wasn't it? now 9+ which seems more accurate to me.) I know it's all subjective, but isn't that the point of a consensus rating.
I guess my point is, there really should be a cut-off, but two letter grades is a really small difference. I don't have a great solution, i'm just throwing in my 2 cents.
also, any opinion of mine on route difficulty is my own opinion, and not meant as criticism of the fa/equipper.
excessive down rating
I disagree with this. IMO most 5.12 climbers have worked their way through the grades. They might have climbed more 10's than someone who only climbs 10's. I think the 5.12 climber is less qualified to grade 5.12 climbs and more qualified to grade 10's and 11's.ynot wrote:I know ratings are subjective and I agree,but sometimes I think a 12.d climber gets on a 10 and the first thing he does is downrate it. Well sure its easy for him.
I think someone who climbs 10's alot can tell if its a 10.
"Climbing is the spice, not the meal." ~ Lurkist
dhoyne, I understand what you're saying. however, it wouldn't have ever made it there if that was the outside limit for how much it could be changed. The overall average would have stayed higher no matter how many people rated it 9+. perhaps 2 letter grades of current consensus would be better, allowing for change over time, without making it possible for any one person to screw things up in a major way.
and rhunt, I agree with part of your statement, you're right, it is likely that a 5.12 climber has climbed a lot of 5.10's, but if they seem easier now they are more likely to get downrated. The problem i see is that they have worked their way through the grades, as we all have, but have moved beyond that grade. I know 5.9's and 5.10's seem a lot easier to me now than they did when they were right at my limit. With trad i don't think it's as much of a problem, because most people continue to climb lots of different grades, but in sport i've witnessed quite a few people who consistently climb near their limit. There are probably sport climbers out there that haven't climbed a 5.9 in years.
and rhunt, I agree with part of your statement, you're right, it is likely that a 5.12 climber has climbed a lot of 5.10's, but if they seem easier now they are more likely to get downrated. The problem i see is that they have worked their way through the grades, as we all have, but have moved beyond that grade. I know 5.9's and 5.10's seem a lot easier to me now than they did when they were right at my limit. With trad i don't think it's as much of a problem, because most people continue to climb lots of different grades, but in sport i've witnessed quite a few people who consistently climb near their limit. There are probably sport climbers out there that haven't climbed a 5.9 in years.
-
quicksilver
- Posts: 82
- Joined: Fri Sep 12, 2003 3:58 am
The ratings game is always such an interesting topic. When Josh and I worked on Green Tea I thought the grade he gave it was correct. Being an older climber who
does not get to climb much just now but has a lot of experience at 5.10 and under
I think there are so many variables and it is totally different for each climber. How much are you climbing? What kind of mood you are in? Is the energy from your partner good? Does the climb lend itself to your style? etc. etc. When I redpointed Pouges Ethics I realized it was probably overrated - But it is one of the most fun climbs in the Red. My guess is it is 9+ to .10a A few weeks ago Josh and I were at T-Wall and a good freind of ours took a nasty fall on a 5.8 Now this guy can climb much harder than that. My thoughts were - he is over 50yrs, old - has not climbed a lot recently - he climbed hard the day before - the long drive to get down there and not enough sleep - crummy weather - and an awkward climb that is probably a little sandbagged. Thank goodness he was o.k. The climb was named "Dirtbag"
Guess the name should have been a hint. Anyway, it is each climbers responsibility and option as to when to back off regardless of what the book might rate it. Commen sense prevails. I think that Rays' idea is a good one. When I look in a guidebook I am looking for something that I feel is in my range - if the book says 5.5 and it is 5.7 - no big deal. If the book says 5.9 and it is 5.11 - big deal for me. Although I know this Goodguy pretty well and I am freinds with J-Rock I really do not know Ray. His guidebook is FANTASTIC and I can't imagine the amount of work put into it. Josh has put so much of his soul into climbing that I sometimes worry that maybe I should not have ever showed him a rope. J-Rock and the Muir Valley crew bust their arses and do a phenominal job. Hey - people argue all the time about ratings - just as long as it is not sand bagged to the point of being dangerous - but then again each climber has to use their head. Ray, J-Rock, Carla,
Josh, J.J. the Webers, and all the others out their that work so hard - you are a blessing - there are doers and there are talkers and always remember opinions are
like you know what and everybody has one.
does not get to climb much just now but has a lot of experience at 5.10 and under
I think there are so many variables and it is totally different for each climber. How much are you climbing? What kind of mood you are in? Is the energy from your partner good? Does the climb lend itself to your style? etc. etc. When I redpointed Pouges Ethics I realized it was probably overrated - But it is one of the most fun climbs in the Red. My guess is it is 9+ to .10a A few weeks ago Josh and I were at T-Wall and a good freind of ours took a nasty fall on a 5.8 Now this guy can climb much harder than that. My thoughts were - he is over 50yrs, old - has not climbed a lot recently - he climbed hard the day before - the long drive to get down there and not enough sleep - crummy weather - and an awkward climb that is probably a little sandbagged. Thank goodness he was o.k. The climb was named "Dirtbag"
Guess the name should have been a hint. Anyway, it is each climbers responsibility and option as to when to back off regardless of what the book might rate it. Commen sense prevails. I think that Rays' idea is a good one. When I look in a guidebook I am looking for something that I feel is in my range - if the book says 5.5 and it is 5.7 - no big deal. If the book says 5.9 and it is 5.11 - big deal for me. Although I know this Goodguy pretty well and I am freinds with J-Rock I really do not know Ray. His guidebook is FANTASTIC and I can't imagine the amount of work put into it. Josh has put so much of his soul into climbing that I sometimes worry that maybe I should not have ever showed him a rope. J-Rock and the Muir Valley crew bust their arses and do a phenominal job. Hey - people argue all the time about ratings - just as long as it is not sand bagged to the point of being dangerous - but then again each climber has to use their head. Ray, J-Rock, Carla,
Josh, J.J. the Webers, and all the others out their that work so hard - you are a blessing - there are doers and there are talkers and always remember opinions are
like you know what and everybody has one.
"If you smile at me I will understand
Because that is something everybody, everywhere does in the same language"
Crosby,Stills and Nash - Wooden Ships
Because that is something everybody, everywhere does in the same language"
Crosby,Stills and Nash - Wooden Ships
Quick, that cracked me up.quicksilver wrote: I know this Goodguy pretty well
I agree that there can be a rating for how a climber feels on it (I had a day recently where Sunshine [the climb, not the person] felt like a 12), but there can be a rating for how it relates to other climbs in the area (overhanging, pockets, jugs, etc.).
I haven't seen many 10s downrated, but I've seen a lot of 11s downrated, usually because I'm the smart ass doing it. However, many 11s in the red are 10s, but it's that one or two moves (or length such as Whipstocking) that makes all the difference.
That said, Ro Shampo is a definite 5.11c if you use the "out left" beta (10d if you handjam). Bring it on, Paul, Pig and Rhunt!
could you give some examples? I am curious.mcrib wrote:What confuses me is grades that have stood for years being suddenly downrated in the past year or so. Some of these grades have stood for more than ten years and hundreds of acents but suddenly they've changed. Why?
and Meadows...Ro was 12a when I did it....you know back in the day. 8) Now some of the hold have grow from all the trapped moister at that cliff and so it's 11c at best. What you haven't heard of holds growing...geesh
"Climbing is the spice, not the meal." ~ Lurkist