Paradise Lost - No Hands?

Post by **gregkerzhner** » Sat Jul 30, 2005 12:13 pm

Just rate the route 13a and let people use the no hands rest. We dont need any of this eliminates stuff. And remember... the crimper in the middle of the crux is not on the white route, there is clearly yellow tape on it... the white route is 13c and the yellow route is 13a.
cheers

Post by **allah** » Sun Jul 31, 2005 3:14 am

HAHAHAHA, If you have ever seen the route and saw where the ledge was you can tell that you have to make moves off of the original line to get to the ledges, I say how bout dont be a weak wanker and stay off the ledge if you want to say you have done the route.

Post by **pawilkes** » Mon Aug 01, 2005 12:26 am

yeah you have to do 3 or 4 moves completely off line to get to the rest.

Post by **Wes** » Mon Aug 01, 2005 2:12 am

pawilkes wrote:yeah you have to do 3 or 4 moves completely off line to get to the rest.

Is there a SCEC limit on how many moves/feet/etc you can be off the accepted line before you haven't done the route? Or do you need a signed waiver on a case by case basis?

Post by **pawilkes** » Mon Aug 01, 2005 9:34 am

people can do whatever the hell they want, but it is obviously significantly off the line.

Post by **J-Rock** » Mon Aug 01, 2005 12:21 pm

We changed the ratings on a couple of routes at Muir because people were climbing so far off route (skipping cruxes, finding other rest jugs, climbing around the hard moves) and then arguing that the route was easier than the grade. I reclimbed the routes some of the ways that others were doing it (climbing far to the side for rest jugs, going around cruxes, etc. and it was considerably easier). We commented that they were obviously off route and not even close to the bolts, but we still changed the grade anyway (since that is what they voted for on the consensus)...

Post by **kafish2** » Mon Aug 01, 2005 4:44 pm

this is a beautiful line first of all, and so i think i would like to work it. I want to climb it as essentially a two pitch climb. What i am thinking is climbing to the big jug rest but then dropping down to the ledge... I am really short so it would be a significant drop of course. Once there i will probably hang out for about an hour, maybe have my boys toss up some lunch and gatorade. Once i am fully recovered, I will do a jump start from the ledge and sent that beast and the fully intended 5.13b!!! woohooo

then again maybe i probably wont, but did i say this was an awesome line? Because it surely is.

Post by **Wes** » Mon Aug 01, 2005 4:52 pm

J-Rock wrote:We changed the ratings on a couple of routes at Muir because people were climbing so far off route (skipping cruxes, finding other rest jugs, climbing around the hard moves) and then arguing that the route was easier than the grade. I reclimbed the routes some of the ways that others were doing it (climbing far to the side for rest jugs, going around cruxes, etc. and it was considerably easier). We commented that they were obviously off route and not even close to the bolts, but we still changed the grade anyway (since that is what they voted for on the consensus)...

Over time, people will find the path of least resistance on a route. Maybe instead of thinking they are off route because they are not close to the bolts, maybe concider that they are climbing the "natural line of weakness" and the bolts are missplaced.

Post by **squeezindlemmon** » Mon Aug 01, 2005 6:01 pm

True Wes, but this makes a very confusing point in that some experienced bolters also strongly advice that routes go on a plumb line. So let's say a route was setup in a nice, straight, plumb line (to follow experienced bolter #1 advice). Over time, people find a path of least resistance - hence, the conclusion is that bolts are misplaced and need to be moved (to follow experienced bolter #2 advice). Who's really to say what's right or wrong? All experienced bolters/FA'ers I've talked to have different opinions - same goes with all climbers I've talked to. All different opinions.

To me personally, it comes down to respect for the bolter/FA'er and the style in which they first climbed the route. That, to me, is exactly where the route is and where it should stay - unless, of course, the FA'er grants the persmission to alter the route.

Post by **J-Rock** » Mon Aug 01, 2005 9:42 pm

Wes, so does this mean that if some people climb Allah's route and use the rest (even though Allah did not use it) that he should then move the bolt? I say he should leave it how it is and if somebody else uses the rest then they are just cheating themselves. This does not imply that he did a poor job bolting the route (misplaced the bolt) or that he should have followed the path of least resistance better.

What if the path of least resistance follows chossy rock or it is of lower quality? This is often the case. What if the path of least resistance isn't good climbing or it is too contrived or too wandering? This is the case sometimes too. For various reasons the obvious path of weakness is NOT always the best (or "right") way to go. There are many other things to consider...

What about "Gung Ho" and "Tissue Tiger"? Several times I've seen people climb off to the sides and rest on the jugs of the other route (or even on Fuzzy). Does this mean that they didn't really climb off route (since they are climbing the "natural line of weakness"), but that Porter missplaced the bolts?