For me beta's largely subjective. A bum knee or different strengths sometimes make it difficult for me to follow someone else's beta. In general unless I ask I just ignore it and do what feels natural to me, sometimes that follows the tried and true beta and sometimes it doesn't.
Beta on where the crux is or where things relax a bit are pretty cool but "how to work the move" beta as often as not doesn't feel right to me.
beta
I see people scratching and thugging thier way up a route bolt to bolt using the worst holds, and bad beta. They are doing it "their way", but figuring it our for themselves did nothing to improve their climbing in the future. Is is pride or ego that prohibits people from listening to people that actually know how to climb a given route? As I said, I like to try for pure onsights sometimes (usually while roadtripping). Reading the route can be super fun and a great learning experence. But, that is usually for stuff that is not near my limits, so I can hang out and try different things, while still having the juice to climb on once I do figure it out. But, I wouldn't have the skills to read the route if I didn't listen to beta on other routes with the same kinda moves. So, I want to know about the hidden foot hold, or the thumbwrap or toehook or whatever. And, after I have been shown something like that, I *might* be able to see and read that on the next route.
And for hard redpoints, subtle beta can make all the difference. Like having someone point out a differnet foot or a change in body position or a rest stance that you didn't see before. I have found that I have to change beta on project level routes alot. Sections I can just power through after a hang become imposable to do the same way with a pump, so I have to figure out a better way to do that section. Which usually involves asking someone else, a team problem solving session, or, yes, trying to figure it out on my own.
And for hard redpoints, subtle beta can make all the difference. Like having someone point out a differnet foot or a change in body position or a rest stance that you didn't see before. I have found that I have to change beta on project level routes alot. Sections I can just power through after a hang become imposable to do the same way with a pump, so I have to figure out a better way to do that section. Which usually involves asking someone else, a team problem solving session, or, yes, trying to figure it out on my own.
"There is no secret ingredient"
Po, the kung fu panda
Po, the kung fu panda
sometimes i can be those but for me i know it's neither for two reasons. first, i often do routes much different than the person who "knows" how to climb it. i read it and adjust. and that leads to my second reason: i really like to be able to feel what's going on, where my weight is, where the route is "taking me" and then anticipate and react. "am i going to barndoor? ok, where's a good to brace myself." "an undercling? must be a high foot somewhere" or the like.. i like to feel like i'm able to feel and react. when i take beta, sometimes i feel that, sometimes i don't. more often than not, i don't.Wes wrote: Is is pride or ego that prohibits people from listening to people that actually know how to climb a given route?
maybe it's because i'm a problem solver. i loved math class for this and hated group work in math class, even if i came in last with it. i never used a calculator. it was the process and being able to see it and figure it out for me that gave me the satisfaction. and as for learning by listening to beta i'd offer this as a (probably very poor) analogy: kids who use calculators to do all their work are usually completely stumped when it comes to doing the problems without the calculator.. so did they learn math better or worse by having the calculator?
and great loves will one day have to part -smashing pumpkins
Paul3eb, Climbers are a strange group. People will take golf lessions, dance lessions, music lessions, etc - but climbers just want to figure stuff out on there own. There needs to be a balance for sure, but I guess I don't mind having people who know what they are doing give me advice on how to maybe do something better. I don't have to actually do it the way they say, but it does give me some other options, which I might use, or maybe use part of thier beta, and change it a bit to fit my style of climbing. I just don't think it should be a black and white issue that some people make it out to be.
Wes
Wes
"There is no secret ingredient"
Po, the kung fu panda
Po, the kung fu panda
oh i agree completely.. and i really do appreciate the thought that other people have, that they want to see me doing well and share the feeling of accomplishment.. or something like that. but i do know for me, unless i ask for it, i'd rather not have it. for me, it's just usually the way i get the most enjoyment out of climbing.Wes wrote:I just don't think it should be a black and white issue that some people make it out to be.
and great loves will one day have to part -smashing pumpkins
and actually one thing i will say about the other activities you mentioned: they're all either scored, judged based on performance, or having a distinct (even physically measureable) "right" aspect about them. climbing, for me at least, doesn't have those aspects. but one this i will say: i will always take safety beta unsolicited. that's not one thing i want to figure out on my own, eg: seventh bolt up realizing i'm not doubled back at all or backclipped, etc..
and great loves will one day have to part -smashing pumpkins
I guess to me, I am more intrested in learning and progressing as a climber. And I find I really do learn how to climb better from doing routes at my limit with good beta. I find I learn much less when I just try to get to the top any way I can. I have learned so much by bouldering/climbing with creative people like Ray, Terry, Nick R., Chris, Gene, etc. They all have cool *tricks* for some problems that I would have never figured out own my own, but since I was open to taking beta, I now have cool *tricks* that I can use on other problems and routes.
"There is no secret ingredient"
Po, the kung fu panda
Po, the kung fu panda
When I'm trying to onsight, beta is bothersome.
Years ago, I was onsighting this route that was very hard for me, and this dude yells up a bunch of beta. I was like, gee, thanks but shut it.
Working a route? I don't know, I haven't really worked a route when someone was available for beta.
Years ago, I was onsighting this route that was very hard for me, and this dude yells up a bunch of beta. I was like, gee, thanks but shut it.
Working a route? I don't know, I haven't really worked a route when someone was available for beta.
"Before enlightenment, chop wood, carry water. After enlightenment, chop wood, carry water."