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I thought this thread was going to be about rating a climb before is was completed too. IMO a rating is given based on a consensus, so it has to be climbed before it can be rated.

A route should definitely be sent before it is graded. It's also poor form to climb a route, hang on the draws, and then proceed to downgrade it. Every route is different and each person has their own strengths and weaknesses, good days, and bad days, etc. Especially at the Red endurance is a huge factor. I've done 5.12 routes at the Red where the crux is fighting the pump to make the clips on the 5.10 jug-haul finishes.

Nah. Can't do it. Not and effectively argue it anyway.

Michelle, heres a question....(And in NO way am I trying to belittle your acheivement, cuz I'm super inspired by you, Yasi, and the other hard women...)

BUT, you said yourself that placing and falling on passive gear was new for you. With Synchronicity being tricky gear, could that have been what made it more 11ish?? That gear wouldn't be very tricky for someone efficient at placing nuts and comfortable climbing above them. How should that route be graded?

For me right now, it'd feel 5.12, cuz the second I touch an overhanging jug, I melt off....but when I was adept at overhanging endurance, I lead it, and felt that it was more 10ish....

Ok, thats my participation for the week.

I don't know, man. I gave that thing three solid goes and each of those times I placed the nut or cam just as fast as if clipping a bolt. The gear is easy to place on that thing one you've taken as much time to figure it out as I have.

I don't place any nuts on Synchronicity, and I was actually thinking today that maybe that's what makes the placements harder for me... because the "crux placement" for me is a blind placement for a little blue Alien, and I have to place it, pull over to check it, (tug on it a million times to make sure that it's good), and that takes a lot out of me. So, I was thinking that being able to slot a nut and see that it's good would do away with a lot of that work.

I have trouble rating Synchronicity, though... it doesn't climb like a trad route, so it's hard to rate it against other 5.11 trad routes I've been on. I guess you could take the average of .10d and .11b and call it .11a.

Sure, the placements were easy, but was your head in the same place as it would have been with a bolt? And should that go into a rating?

I didn't have any head problems at all on it. I just couldn't make the move because it's tricky. Each time I fell I took big whippers and falling wasn't an issue at all.

Like Yasi said, it doesn't climb like a trad route so I'm comparing it to the sport routes I've climbed. Compared to the 10's on the wall it's harder. And compared to the sport 11's I've climbed, it's grade is right on.

Hmm....ok.

I didn't think it was as hard as any 11 sport routes I'd been on.

OK.

I'm done again. Bye.

What's funny is this topic isn't anything new. From since I can remember I've heard that Synchronicity was easy for the grade and I adopted that mindset too...until I lead it. Leading it felt harder to me than the times I've toproped it, as haas suggested. That's kinda the point of this thread.

I love it how some routes have a crux AND a redpoint crux. That's why it's always so cool going for the redpoint because the route can seem easier once you've figured out the crux but then you have to get through the "redpoint crux" to make the send.

Rating a route before you've redpointed is sort of like saying you can run a marathon on 2.5 hours because you ran a mini in 1.25 hours. The second 13 miles are a bit different than the first 13 miles.