12d's that are easier that The Original start of Table

Post by **rhunt** » Fri Mar 19, 2004 12:12 am

Astroman wrote:Stunning the Hog is way too short to be 12+. 12c I think.

Curoius, how does the lenght of the route determine the difficulty? That would be the hardest 12c at the red if it is 12c... i thought thirsting skull was the standard 12c at the red.

Post by **Astroman** » Fri Mar 19, 2004 12:18 am

True. Length should have nothing to do with it... BUT Stunning the Hog ain't 12d... Just like Wild Gift ain't 12c. These "short" routes would be rated much differently at, say.... Rifle (or another "power/endurance" destination).

Post by **rhunt** » Fri Mar 19, 2004 12:27 am

Astroman, now I am really confused, the geographic location determines the grade...uh ok

Post by **Astroman** » Fri Mar 19, 2004 3:22 am

rhunt, c'mon. Dude, Stunning is SOFT (was it your first 12d?). The business is about 12 feet long. The Red is an "endurance" area... "power" routes there tend to be soft in my opinion. Call it geography if you want to. 8 Ball is another PERFECT example: people whine all the time about it being 13a... not true.

Post by **rhunt** » Fri Mar 19, 2004 1:43 pm

Astroman, check out my spray list, I haven't sent 12d yet. All I can say is the moves on stunning(I've been on it about 6 times) are harder than the moves on all the 12c's I've done at the red. I see what you are getting at with the power area/ enduranace area but this is a problem for me. Over generalizing a climbing area or crag then basing ratings on that generalization is not the way to grade routes. In the end it does matter and it's a nice change to get on routes like Stunning and Wild Gift what ever their grade is.

Oh and I'll make sure to send 8-ball first this spring so my first 12d will be a real one..that is unless someone wants to down-grade 8-ball again...I'm sure Buster would love that.

Post by **Power2U** » Fri Mar 19, 2004 4:06 pm

Astroman...who are you

Post by **rhunt** » Fri Mar 19, 2004 4:22 pm

Power2U wrote:Astroman...who are you

I was wondering the same thing..probably a troll.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Fri Mar 19, 2004 4:24 pm

Astroman is not a troll, FYI.

I know who he is - neener! But of course it's his perogative to say or not. He's a very accomplished climber. I'll leave it at that.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Fri Mar 19, 2004 4:25 pm

not to say that Astroman isn't trolling...

Post by **pigsteak** » Fri Mar 19, 2004 5:01 pm

where I usually climb, the routes are shorter than at the Red, and we would take the exact opposite view Astroman. I feel all your "endurance" ratings are very soft...no hard moves, no defined cruxes..that is the Red..of course, that is generalizing, but I find it quite hilarious that Stunning is not 12d because the business is only 12 feet....do we also rate boulder problems differently because they have only one hard move in them?