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Thanks SCIN, sometimes that little piggie can't stop thinking about numbers...maybe it's because of all the accounting he does.

No man, steak is right on! Who cares about 10a, 10b, 10c, 10d, 11a, 11b, 11c, 11d. If your not climbing 12's man, you sure don't count for much do you?
And really, everyone knows Bonzo is WAAAAY harder than autum.

But on a more serious note, trad's don't bicker over grades cause sport climbers break in the grades and set the standard, and trad's follow behind. How hard is the hardest trad route out there? 14a/b? 14b was around for almost a decade before trad hit 5.14. Its harder to bicker when the standard has been set.

5pigstickable. Thats funny.

ynot wrote:5pigstickable. Thats funny.

Sport climbers seem to climb to a number.

Trad climbers seem to climb to ... well ... enjoy the climb. IMHO, there may be nothing more beautiful than the top of a 5.6 climb (Bedtime for Bonzo).

To me 5.8 trad = 5.10 sport when you compensate for the fact that you have to place your own pro and all of the extra weight of the gear. It's a lot harder, both physically and mentally, when you have to hang out in the middle of a crux and place gear. Just enjoy trad and sport for what they are.

Also, some climbs will feel easier than others for certain people. Everyone has their own style and what feels easy. I think BBBB is a hike in the woods compared to Into The purple Valley and that is a 5.11c sport route to a 5.8 trad route, respectively.

Not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted.
--Albert Einstein

Any intelligent fool can make things bigger and more complex... It takes a touch of genius --- and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction.
--Albert Einstein

yo SCIN.....so let's take your "thought" one step further, and go the other way on the scale... the average joe says who cares about yor 5.4 trad lines...when you hit 5.7 and 5.8, then we will break them down with + and minus.....where does it stop?

and while we are on the subject, you suggested that we stick to the "original" YDS...did you really mean that...because even you know the original version stopped at 5.10...if it is open to revision with 5.11, 5.12, etc, then why not open to revision the other way...?

btw, ray, you made my point for me..thanks. arguing over 5.6 or 5.12 may be mindless, but we continue to do it... it is human nature to want to "define" and "quantify" things. 99.5% of climbers use a number, and attach it to their climbs...if I climbed 5.9 last season, but am struggling on a 5.8 this year, then I tell myself my fitness is not where it needs to be...

jgill had a very simple system..care to go back to it?

Damn piggie, I thought you were kidding.

huggybone..I am....I just love to debate.

if you haven't noticed, piggie takes the other side of any topic on this board. imo, that where true learning comes from...hearing all possible, viable options, and then coming to our own conclusions.

and he speaks of himself in the third person! JUST who is this pig---man? Is he sitting in the cubicle next to you?
you should go do pigs in space!!!Lead it and rename it!!!!