2015 V-day Fixed Gear Fundraiser

[climb2core]

also, as the link you refer to put it, more or less, 'subsidizing' developers for the reason that the good stuff is too expensive for them on there own seems to be encouraging people with an otherwise ambivalent regard to preservation.

95% of the new development was done with plated bolts prior to the start of the the initiative to subsidize hardware. There is no top down management policy requiring stainless steel (MV excluded) and in it absence plated bolts were the norm. You can argue higher ethical ground all day, but the reality is that bolting materials would not have changed without subsidizing them. Rather backwards IMHO that you'll support rebolting, but not the very expensive cost of doing it with better materials the first time while expecting that cost to be fully born by the developer.

You can pick up 5 piece ss power bolt that we need to use in the Red for about $10 retail. Add to that about $2.50 for a hanger puts it at $12.50 per combo. Average 10 bolts per route, so $125 per route. There are 285 online sport routes in Miller Fork now. That would have cost developers $35,625. Most of those routes have been put up by about 10 or so people.

But you are probably right Clif. They should bear that cost.

[climbhigh]

First, thanks to everyone thats donated, rebolted, developed, set up cool events like this and those that have constructive criticism. All those combined is how you continually move forward and how a community like that Red has been established and known to be one of the best in the world.

Theres a long ass line of assholes that have been taking this on their shoulders for years, not just the sexy mother fuckers y'all listed in the previous posts. Its cool to see the organization and the amount of new people bolting/rebolting/donating and to watch the positive impact that it does have on the area and the community as a whole.

Though personally, I think Cliff does bring up solid points and as the fixed gear initiative moves forward, maybe it needs to apply and state goals from within its ranks and donors as to what gets used for new and old routes. A budget per say, split it up by percents. Both sides can be argued to infinity as to which is more important. New routes disperse folk, use the land YOU own, keep people amped and is just freaking cool.....Old routes are classics, they paved the way to get here, what made the red what it is, keep people from getting killed, shows good relations with FS/land owners and the vast majority of those routes really kick ass.....Much more could be said on both topics but not needed here.

But as someone looking from the outside in of something that was and continues to hold a very special place in my heart, dont go down the path of pushing away constructive criticism. See how the two opposing view points are probably closer together than they appear and use that to continue to build a bigger and better effort.

Enjoy the whisky and WWTD ?

[climb2core]

First, thanks to everyone thats donated, rebolted, developed, set up cool events like this and those that have constructive criticism. All those combined is how you continually move forward and how a community like that Red has been established and known to be one of the best in the world.

Theres a long ass line of assholes that have been taking this on their shoulders for years, not just the sexy mother fuckers y'all listed in the previous posts. Its cool to see the organization and the amount of new people bolting/rebolting/donating and to watch the positive impact that it does have on the area and the community as a whole.

Though personally, I think Cliff does bring up solid points and as the fixed gear initiative moves forward, maybe it needs to apply and state goals from within its ranks and donors as to what gets used for new and old routes. A budget per say, split it up by percents. Both sides can be argued to infinity as to which is more important. New routes disperse folk, use the land YOU own, keep people amped and is just freaking cool.....Old routes are classics, they paved the way to get here, what made the red what it is, keep people from getting killed, shows good relations with FS/land owners and the vast majority of those routes really kick ass.....Much more could be said on both topics but not needed here.

But as someone looking from the outside in of something that was and continues to hold a very special place in my heart, dont go down the path of pushing away constructive criticism. See how the two opposing view points are probably closer together than they appear and use that to continue to build a bigger and better effort.

Enjoy the whisky and WWTD ?

Tackett, first thanks for letting us stand on your shoulders to keep things evolving and improving. We wouldn't be here today without the vision of old crusties like you. Second, (and most important) Thanks for the Whisky!!! Someone is going to be a happy donor!

Lastly, regarding bolting vs re-bolting. The issue is for re-bolting is NOT MONEY. It is manpower. Due to our partnership with the ASCA, we for all intensive purposes have unlimited materials (more than we can get people to use). The hardware for the ASCA is ONLY for rebolting and it does not get used on new route development.

So in short, we are mostly fundraising for new route development because that is largely where we need to fund raise for at this time. Should that change, we would re-evalauate the distribution of funding. Providing developers with SS now will significantly help reduce our need for manpower in the future as the number of routes in the Red continues to rapidly expand. At some point, we may even consider some sort of model where developers are compensated for rebolting. Perhaps one free new bolt for route development for every old bolt they replace.

Thanks for your thoughts and hope that makes sense.

Cheers,

Ian

[dustonian]

Just to reiterate what Ian said, the limiting factor with regard to maintenance is finding willing labor and experience. If anyone knows of a route that needs imminent rebolting AND has the necessary skills with bolting/rebolting, especially placing glue-ins and removing/patching old bolts, please get in touch. There is no real shortage of rebolt gear at this point, thanks to ASCA as well as all the generous supporters of community fundraisers like this one. Huge thanks also to everyone who has stepped up to do the dirty work over the years... you know who you are.

[DrRockso]

To add to what Dustin said, I am looking for motivated partners to help me rebolt stuff. I have a list of about 10 routes I'd like to do maintenance on. I'd like to get to the more popular ones before spring to avoid route traffic. Previous bolting experience and drill not necessary, If you do have experience that would be a plus and we could really knock some stuff out quick. I make trips from the Cincinnati area weekdays and weekends.

[clif]

nice post to read Dr.Rockso.

for the rest, doesn't this seem nuts? i mean, not safe climbing, but feeling some urgency to bolt as many climbs as possible as fast as possible? why not let these put upon 'developers' take a break, leave some undiscovered rocks for newcomers to explore and learn the craft. if people want to put up a route and be proud of it then they'll do the right thing if the local 'ethics', which have not always had an easy way around the Red, is widely agreed upon. if not, there's not much to stop them (pile driver?)

the land is secured which was the impetus behind the rrgcc. this seems like a manufactured issue.....and big thanks to Rick and Liz (I hope they are both doing well) for all of Muir taking the pressure off the FS land and the Clifty.

[climb2core]

It never occurred to me that the answer was so simple! I should have just have pulled the 30 or so developers aside and asked them to slow down, relax a bit, and do the right thing.

Got it. Thanks!

[dustonian]

Clueless as always. First, there are already plenty of "newcomers" out bolting routes... perhaps 25-30 individuals in Miller Fork alone. Second, the rock is going to get bolted regardless, there is no 'letting' anyone take a break, so the Red needed a means to make the longest-lasting hardware as affordable as possible. The only real way to do that is to make the price of stainless steel competitive with the zinc-plated cheapies. Continual mewling from the sidelines gets nothing done.

[clif]

yes. the Red needs to make it affordable for the developers to bolt rock regardless of their willingness to pay for their ambitions?

[dustonian]

You still don't get it huh. It's $3-$5 per plated bolt+hanger, this fundraiser matches that price for stainless steel hardware that won't need replacement in ~15 years or less. The route is going to get bolted regardless, do you need a calculator?