RRC Archives

does it count if it's removable?

I have placed a flat head screw driver, seems to count for me.

Once in a very blue moon, I think a pin might make a good addition to a questionable gear line when your trying to keep the bolt-free flavor and you dont want a premature dirt nap ... if'n:

-no bizarre array of equalized screamered jazz will be equivalent or better than the pin
-the bolt would really detract from the route ... chances are if you've got time to bang a pin on lead you could also hook and drill
-your going to clean it well in the hopes that it will someday make a nice home for a small nut
-your really cheap and have boxes of old military surplus ringed pins in the garage just begging for a day of glory
-something something about appropriate public display of your pecker ...

*Perhaps the last two criteria seem like a stretch, what else am I missing? Oh yes, you can prove to your fellow trad wankers that you really do own all those silly aid widgets which most defiantly haven't sat unadmired at your past three garage sales.

megmay wrote: the bolt would really detract from the route ... chances are if you've got time to bang a pin on lead you could also hook and drill.

This is true, but I would surmise that you have probably never drilled a bolt by hand on lead. Placing a pin in a nice seam takes 10 seconds, a bolt takes a minimum of 30 minutes or more (way more for 3-4" x 1/2" bolts in Corbin sandstone from the EXISTING anchors I have replaced in Clifty). For that reason alone, your belayer will HATE you if you decide you need to drill. In addition, a bolt requires creating a new hole for the metal to enter, whereas a pin is placed in a natural feature of the rock (albeit one too small or incipient for RPs, slider nuts, or tiny cams). This is a critical difference, from both aesthetic and regulatory standpoints. When putting in a new route ground-up, it is always preferable to place a pin rather than a bolt if you have no other options. Bolting on lead is usually last-resort/maybe-we-should-bail/maybe-this-should-be-a-sport-route-instead/out-of-all-other-options territory. A bomber piton, by contrast, is like a gift from above when you are strung out on several bad RPs or sketchy flared cams in a row.

dustonian wrote:

megmay wrote: the bolt would really detract from the route ... chances are if you've got time to bang a pin on lead you could also hook and drill.

This is true, but I would surmise that you have probably never drilled a bolt by hand on lead. Placing a pin in a nice seam takes 10 seconds, a bolt takes a minimum of 30 minutes or more (way more for 3-4" x 1/2" bolts in Corbin sandstone from the EXISTING anchors I have replaced in Clifty). For that reason alone, your belayer will HATE you if you decide you need to drill. In addition, a bolt requires creating a new hole for the metal to enter, whereas a pin is placed in a natural feature of the rock (albeit one too small or incipient for RPs, slider nuts, or tiny cams). This is a critical difference, from both aesthetic and regulatory standpoints. When putting in a new route ground-up, it is always preferable to place a pin rather than a bolt if you have no other options. Bolting on lead is usually last-resort/maybe-we-should-bail/maybe-this-should-be-a-sport-route-instead/out-of-all-other-options territory. A bomber piton, by contrast, is like a gift from above when you are strung out on several bad RPs or sketchy flared cams in a row.

You would surmise incorrectly about her experience hand drilling.

What the rest of that should have read is:
Doing ground up routes is very hard work. I like placing pins because they are quicker and easier than hand drilling.

Meg has a lot of experience doing ground up routes, being strung out on sketchy gear, and driving pins. Because someone doesn't agree with you, doesn't mean that you are to surmise that they are inexperienced and give them a discourse on how to do new routes.

Cool! Sounds like someone who would be fun to climb with. No need to get upset about something "surmised" to "probably" be the case... it is true that over 99% of climbers have not drilled by hand on lead, but of course this is not always the case. I don't really consider that to be a marker of "inexperience," as there are plenty of bumblies who drill on lead (usually unnecessarily) and plenty of experienced hardmen and women who have never done it.

You are off-target though about preferring to place pins because it is quicker and easier. That is perhaps one reason, but the main issue is aesthetic. I strongly believe it's better to avoid drilling a hole if the rock offers other options when establishing new routes in traditional style. There has been a general consensus about this amongst traditional climbers for many decades. Even better is to avoid placing any fixed gear at all, but of course this is not always feasible. A piton is one level of desperation below a bolt.

PS. For the record I have never placed a pin in the DBNF, only replaced a few existing anchors.

Ahh, good stuff! Ive been thinking about this issue back and forth in the recent past, debating this very issue. I'm glad this post surfaced ... in a world of sandy grey ethics, there's almost always a novel perspective or angle to be considered. I think your right there dustonian, its really a matter of aesthetics; a nice thin and spicy line looks so much more appealing and consistent with with a fixed pin, than a fixed bolt. Alternatively, I could find some old angle iron and button heads - that sure would preserve the uber rusty trad flavor coveted by hard men. Drilling bolts by hand is really hard to do and even harder drill anything that doesn't resemble duck vagina. I still swing a hammer like a girl - given the right seam / placement, I think I could personally sink a far better pin than hand-drilled bolt. However, these are all somewhat extreme and semi selfish considerations, all bets are off when power tools are an option and the first ascensionist chooses to cater to the safety considerations of those that will follow ... Screw it, drill a bolt ladder. Some day the quiet folks climbing in woods will be worry about the unprepared gym rat who ten years in the future will crater in at the base of their route, in the area they never thought would see traffic ... and they will wish they drilled a bolt ladder, never told their friends, never placed any hardware at all. Ethics are for maggots right? Almost caught my tail ... guess its time to take on full time plastic pulling.

O how quaint. The main reason pins are used is because of their aesthetic?

.....what a load of shit.

Oh how quaint. A pocket puller with an opinion on pins. If you have never done ground up new routes then you are ignorant on this subject and should not chime in against pins just because you read in a patagonia catalog somewhere that pins=bad. Pins are still used responsibly in all kinds of places the world over outside of this little Kentucky microcosm.

You place a pin. You leave it until it shows signs of being in poor shape, you replace said pin. Repeat if necessary, and you end up with a gear placement that replaces the need for a pin (hopefully). Most likely this is a route and/or area where no one else is going to climb very often, and those that do will be competent enough to take responsibility for their own actions (clipping a pin they haven't placed). No one is talking about hammering out the next Serenity Crack.

Seems to me like I have read on here about folks moving clips and placing mechanical bolts and RB's in order to put glue-ins in overhung rock. Now you tell me what has more of an impact on the aesthetics and the rock/environment; a pin that will eventually leave a scar that takes gear, or drilling two to holes for every clip on a new sport route at the latest cave.

All of that being said, I have a bosch and no intention of drilling by hand unless I have to, but pins have a definite place in climbing. In fact, I would wager they produce less impact on Corbin sandstone than Hoosier Heights gym.

Howie Feltersnatch wrote:Oh how quaint. A pocket puller with an opinion on pins. If you have never done ground up new routes then you are ignorant on this subject and should not chime in against pins just because you read in a patagonia catalog somewhere that pins=bad. Pins are still used responsibly in all kinds of places the world over outside of this little Kentucky microcosm.

You place a pin. You leave it until it shows signs of being in poor shape, you replace said pin. Repeat if necessary, and you end up with a gear placement that replaces the need for a pin (hopefully). Most likely this is a route and/or area where no one else is going to climb very often, and those that do will be competent enough to take responsibility for their own actions (clipping a pin they haven't placed). No one is talking about hammering out the next Serenity Crack.

Seems to me like I have read on here about folks moving clips and placing mechanical bolts and RB's in order to put glue-ins in overhung rock. Now you tell me what has more of an impact on the aesthetics and the rock/environment; a pin that will eventually leave a scar that takes gear, or drilling two to holes for every clip on a new sport route at the latest cave.

All of that being said, I have a bosch and no intention of drilling by hand unless I have to, but pins have a definite place in climbing. In fact, I would wager they produce less impact on Corbin sandstone than Hoosier Heights gym.

so what you are saying is that chipping routes is the higher ethic. Good to know.