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I'm just jealous that anonymous got to see Dave Graham crush all those routes in person. All I get to see on a good day is pigsteak getting pulled down.

Pulled down or jerked off?

The appeal to authority may take several forms. As a statistical syllogism, it will have the following basic structure:[1]

Most of what authority A has to say on subject matter S is correct.
A says p about S.
Therefore, p is correct.

The strength of this argument depends upon two factors:[1][2]

The authority is a legitimate expert on the subject.
A consensus exists among legitimate experts on the matter under discussion.

Most of what Dave G. says about grades is correct.
Dave G. says 13b about Paradise Lost.
Therefore, 13b is correct.

The strength of the argument depend on

1. Is Dave really a expert on low 13's???? Maybe.
2. 10 people voted 13b and 2 voted 13a. Experts on the subject??? Maybe.

why are grades important: because whether you admit it or not for most of us it is not the beauty of climbing or the aesthetics of the wall or being outside that is most important, it is being able to face a considerable challenge (often physical and mental) and come out of it a better person for having given it a great effort both while on route and in the preparation before, if you can quantify that challenge then it usually will have more meaning (for those occasions when you did what was supposed to be a project quickly who hasn't felt just a twinge of being cheated or not had the thought cross your mind that the route was either soft for the grade or just fit your strengths well? or if an "expert" told you something that took you a lot of work was soft for the grade who doesn't feel a loss of accomplishment?)
I am not ashamed to admit that I am a numbers chaser, I want to be able to do the harder challenge and for the most part the grades given on the site and in the guidebook are pretty accurate, but when an expert can verify something as legit, all the better
Paradise Lost is an awesome route no matter its grade but if I was to project it and send it I am not afraid to admit that I would have more satisfaction from the send if it was a consensus 13b as opposed to 13a, in the past I have gotten more satisfaction from sending one route that seemed to play to my personal weaknesses than another of the exact same grade that played to my strengths

I don't know... still seems more like an ego thing to me when we have to invoke the distinction between 13a and 13b.

Whatever consensus the grade may be (on any route), only you can decide how big of a challenge it was for you. Climbing is a personal adventure, and only you can judge your accomplishment---is your end-game just getting up and clipping the chains? Or is it to send the route in style, with complete mental control and absolute focus? Nobody on the ground will know if you almost wet your pants at the crux...but you will. Not all sends are equal, whatever the grade.

The idea of "quantifying" the challenge doesn't resonate with me: What's more difficult--for an experienced climber to overcome fear and physical hurdles on a 5.13b, or for a brand-new climber to overcome the same obstacles on a 5.7? To me, it's the same thing through and through. There's no difference. I still feel the same way when I get to a route's crux as I did on my first day of climbing. How I react to it, though, has changed. And that can't be quantified.

toad857 wrote:I don't know... still seems more like an ego thing to me when we have to invoke the distinction between 13a and 13b.

Whatever consensus the grade may be (on any route), only you can decide how big of a challenge it was for you. Climbing is a personal adventure, and only you can judge your accomplishment---is your end-game just getting up and clipping the chains? Or is it to send the route in style, with complete mental control and absolute focus? Nobody on the ground will know if you almost wet your pants at the crux...but you will. Not all sends are equal, whatever the grade.

The idea of "quantifying" the challenge doesn't resonate with me: What's more difficult--for an experienced climber to overcome fear and physical hurdles on a 5.13b, or for a brand-new climber to overcome the same obstacles on a 5.7? To me, it's the same thing through and through. There's no difference. I still feel the same way when I get to a route's crux as I did on my first day of climbing. How I react to it, though, has changed. And that can't be quantified.

IMHO, that is retarded. Of course the challenge of the climb will be determined by the climbers skill. But, that doesn't mean we should stop trying to grade the relative difficulty of a climb. The grade will never be an exact science but will serve as a general guideline on how hard the climb is. Besides that, it also serves as endless fodder for grade debates when you can't actually be climbing

Ian, you totally missed my point, we are in agreement about most of what you stated, for the 5.7 climber sending 5.8 is just as big a deal as the 13a climber sending something a bit harder than he(she) ever did before, of course the current ability of the climber has to help define the challenge, what 5.7 climber would not be more psyched to send a 5.8 route as opposed to a 5.5 (if all other things such as quality of route being equal)?

heavyc wrote:Ian, you totally missed my point, we are in agreement about most of what you stated, for the 5.7 climber sending 5.8 is just as big a deal as the 13a climber sending something a bit harder than he(she) ever did before, of course the current ability of the climber has to help define the challenge, what 5.7 climber would not be more psyched to send a 5.8 route as opposed to a 5.5 (if all other things such as quality of route being equal)?

It is ironic that grade ratings doesn't resonate with you (toad or heavyc?), but then in the same breath you use the rating system to acknowledge a step up in accomplishment. Of course anyone should be just as siked if they overcame a climb that was at or near their limit. On way we help figure what climbs those are, are by grades. Of course they will never be exact, but it does help to point you in the right direction.

I screwed up when I started this post. More than the grade, I meant to emphasize the fact that the debate about "the rest" on the route is over 7 years old. Is it not time to move on?

One-Fall wrote:I screwed up when I started this post. More than the grade, I meant to emphasize the fact that the debate about "the rest" on the route is over 7 years old. Is it not time to move on?

not until someone dynamite's that rest......