RRC Archives

Saxman wrote:So why cant the webers sell the parking lot to the Friends of Muir Valley and let them charge for parking? Complete legal separation. The FOMV can then do whatever they want with the money including give it to the Webers.

Yeah, or open up another "free" parking area that people could walk from..... conveniently located 2 miles down the road.

It comes down to the Webers willingness to accept risk. "Should be defensible" and "Most likely" may not be enough security for them. Another thing you need to consider, is the cost of just defending a lawsuit. Charging for parking may create enough uncertainty in the protection afforded by the statute to encourage someone to proceed with a suit.

This year, with all of your help, we will change the culture of the people who climb at Muir. They won't HAVE to give. They will feel EMOTIONALLY COMPELLED and INVESTED and WANT to give.

Secure Muir: Your partner is counting on you to SEND!

Did you say that out loud while doing a kick and holding pom-poms?

bcombs wrote:Did you say that out loud while doing a kick and holding pom-poms?

Yep, you better get yours out too. We are gonna need all the girls doing their best to support this cause. How is the back? Is it gonna be good for back handsprings this year?

Don't worry, I'll be ready.

Climb2 - culture change is all great to talk about, but something tells me you have very little experience getting buy in from users.

The approach you are advocating fails to take the characteristics of an average climber into consideration.

I don't have any better suggestions though, so good luck.

patho wrote:Climb2 - culture change is all great to talk about, but something tells me you have very little experience getting buy in from users.

The approach you are advocating fails to take the characteristics of an average climber into consideration.

I don't have any better suggestions though, so good luck.

I agree, it is gonna be a challenge. You are right, I have not lead a successful fundraising campaign before. BUT, I am somewhat bright, more resourceful, and have had to create change in behavior as the success of my business depended upon it. However, to be fair.... it won't be just my approach. And beyond that, the approach is still in its infancy. So, I guess I would say, your judgement is pre-mature. We will need help. Are you willing to support Muir?

ooh ooh, please tell me you're going to call it 'Occupy Muir Valley'

toad857 wrote:

rohr wrote:Further Reading:

Access Fund article on landowner liability and recreational use statutes that talks about the Red (starts on p. 9):
http://www.accessfund.org/atf/cf/%7B1F5 ... er_vLR.pdf

That is a good read. Here's a scary excerpt:

"Until recently, Illinois’s recreational use statute defined recreation as “any activity undertaken for conservation, Recreational resource management, exercise, education, relaxation, or pleasure on land owned by another.” Now, the state legislature has changed the law to define recreation, for the purpose of the statute, as the “entry onto the land of another to conduct hunting or recreational shooting or a combination thereof or any activity solely related to the aforesaid hunting or recreational shooting.” In this new change to the law, hunting and recreational shootings are not examples; they now sum up the entire legal definition of recreation in the state of Illinois. This has caused a big loss for local climbers."

WOW. And that happened in Illinois!!!

On the bright side, though, it seems that a properly motivated group can indeed get laws changed in their favor.

That law change caused the closing of Draper's Bluff, the place where I learned to climb, sad stuff. Drapers was owned by the guy who wrote the guidebook for So. Ill and ran the place quite similarly to MV. Once you have to accept liability for climbing on your own property, the chance of it staying open just plummets. There is too much risk.

climb2core wrote: I agree, it is gonna be a challenge. You are right, I have not lead a successful fundraising campaign before. BUT, I am somewhat bright, more resourceful, and have had to create change in behavior as the success of my business depended upon it. However, to be fair.... it won't be just my approach. And beyond that, the approach is still in its infancy. So, I guess I would say, your judgement is pre-mature. We will need help. Are you willing to support Muir?

I'm absolutely willing to support Muir Valley.

I'm sure there are lots of ways of getting to that goal.

Trying to effect a culture change is tough, and I doubt anyone has ever really tried on a conventional level with climbers. You'll have to get creative, and avoid the cheerleader, gung ho imagery.

My suggestions would all have to start with communication. There is no better way to get buy in, in my experience.