RRC Archives

My wife still TR's and she does it in style by walking most 5.13's and then proceeds to lead them afterwards. I think it all depends on the person, my wife is a chicken shit that is for sure!

allah wrote:I think it all depends on the person, my wife is a chicken shit that is for sure!

mine too but aside from the lack of a 'rush', i can't stand to have the frigging rope in my face.

climb2core wrote:I think by the time you hit 5.12 you should be comfortable with leading... At what grade do you think people should not be routinely top roping? I am inclined to think you should be pulling the rope by the time you hit 5.11ish... Albeit understanding this is a generalization and doesn't apply to every situation...

I think this is the case of projecting your viewpoint on everyone and forgetting that people climb for different reasons and get enjoyment out of different things.

Yes, I am with you. I do not routinely toprope, I dislike the rope getting in the way, and I'd rather lead. I think I stopped toproping as a default approach by the time I was climbing 5.10-5.11, which is to say within the first season of climbing outside.

But I know enough strong climbers who don't share this viewpoint. And yes, my first reaction is WTF? But then I step back and remember that I am not in their shoes.

A girl who won the NRG toprope climbing comp during the Rendezvous had climbed 5.12 on toprope to win. She doesn't lead. At all. She is strong enough to climb HARD 5.12 cleanly, and she just does not lead, just doesn't want to, and that's it. There are people willing to hang the rope for her, so she is all set...

Sending 5.13 is reasonably strong for a recreational weekend climber, right? Well, several friends of mine who have sent 5.13s would never pass a chance to toprope, if the rope is already up there. They would happily toprope 5.13s (or anything, really, regardless of grade-- 5.9 toprope? sure!), if the chance is offered to them. If they can walk up to the top and set up a toprope and then run laps on those climbs all day, they would be quite content at the end of the day, and tell you that they had a great day. Often for their hard sends they would dog a climb on lead, work it on toprope, and then pull the rope and send.

The difference is, they don't climb at the Red. They don't like overhanging jughauls, they like techy vertical/slabby climbs. And on those vertical climbs toproping is actually comfortable, even if the climb is really hard for you. It is no big deal to fall on a toprope and then get back on, unlike trying to get back on after falling on toprope on, say, Tuna Town. Just imagine falling on Tuna Town on toprope... Between rope stretch and overhang, getting back on would be much more painful of toprope than on lead. Not to mention the fact that, if you are dogging the climb, it is way easier to rest at the bolt and then resume climbing when you are on lead instead of being on toprope.

lena_chita wrote: The difference is, they don't climb at the Red. They don't like overhanging jughauls, they like techy vertical/slabby climbs. And on those vertical climbs toproping is actually comfortable, even if the climb is really hard for you. It is no big deal to fall on a toprope and then get back on, unlike trying to get back on after falling on toprope on, say, Tuna Town. Just imagine falling on Tuna Town on toprope... Between rope stretch and overhang, getting back on would be much more painful of toprope than on lead. Not to mention the fact that, if you are dogging the climb, it is way easier to rest at the bolt and then resume climbing when you are on lead instead of being on toprope.

Good point!!

I agree with lena_chita. The main differance I notice with leading vs. top roping is all in my head and I get more adrenaline out of leading. My fiance has no interest in leading at all. She climbs for the physical workout, beautiful view, and sense of accomplishment. I would NEVER let anyone talk her into leading just because she can toprope a 5.11. The bottom line is, there is no formula. Everyone climbs for there own reasons, and everyone has different paths; trad, sport, multi pitch, slab, jugs, lead, toprope, freeclimb, etc. Let it be.

climb2core wrote:Most of my climbing buddies come from my gym and tend to climb a grade or two below me. They tend to be a little skittish about leading in general and prefer top roping in general. I have always given them a little shit for their TR dispositions and try to encourage them to pull the rope and lead if it is in their ability. However, I would often let them TR the route I was working if they asked. But recently I have grown weary of this practice because I think by the time you hit 5.12 you should be comfortable with leading... At what grade do you think people should not be routinely top roping? I am inclined to think you should be pulling the rope by the time you hit 5.11ish... Albeit understanding this is a generalization and doesn't apply to every situation...

Pull the rope. Move on. You don't have to enable them.

Several thoughts on this...

1.) leading is a skill and needs to be developed through experience. If climbers are routinely top roping climbs with in their ability because they lack the head or the experience to be comfortable, then they will never gain it. Then the day will come when the rope gun isn't there and they will be in a situation where they have to lead. They haven't developed the lead skills and will be at more risk.

2.) The buddies that are often asking to TR the 12 are not 12 climbers... So it turns into a long, awkward hanging session. But this is just my situation.

3.) I think it is smart to TR a climb first if you have any doubts in your leading ability. It will familiarize you with the moves, clipping holds, and give you beta needed for a safer lead. But the goal should to be to work towards leading...

4.). Climbing is leading. We have already dumbed down the sport enough with all our drilled bolts. It seems that there is an overwhelming trend that TR is becoming the standard. The problem with this is it is creating a generation of incompetent lead climbers.

5.). Emphasis has been misplaced on climbing harder vs taking more time at a lower grade to become a competent leader.



I think this generation of TR sporties is bad for the sport and will ultimately create more risk if injury.

if people want to lead, i think they should start leading early. when they can top rope 10a's they should start leading 5.8s. when they do 10+ on TR they should move into 9's and easy 10's. by the time people are breaking into the 12s they should be leading exclusively. people need to build their lead head along with their climbing abilities. this is all assuming we are talking about sport climbing in the red, which is pretty much what this entire website is about. I agree that thin slab and vert routes are another ball of wax (and there are a few that fall into this category in the red)

getting on routes that are above your ability has always bugged me. I don't understand why people prefer to flail on routes way to hard for them instead of working something they can do. this actually is like the point i made above about developing your abilities. becoming a solid 5.11 climber is going to help you send 5.12s more than falling up 5.12s will. it took me 5 years to get from 12a to 12b because I climbed a couple 12a's before i was ready for the grade. once i built up solid skills at 11+ to 12b, it took me 7 months to go from 12c to 13a. this was not because I became that much stronger, it was because i had a solid base of experience.

on a related note, if folks want to TR routes that i put up for them, they better be supplying the rope. taking beginners out for their first experience is one thing but if a TR climber is asking for routes to be put up it should be on their rope.

I don't really care. Just don't be an ASS and leave your top-rope up on a climb for a day if other people are waiting to actually climb it. The usual self-respect and respect for others comes in to play. If someone doesn't want to lead, who cares, you don't have to climb with them if you don't like it. If they do want to lead and are a frightened, unsafe mess, maybe mention it, maybe try to tell them something instructive instead of calling them a chickenshit, or maybe go ahead and call them a chickenshit if that seems to work better. If they are a newbie, maybe scare them a little and point out that spot they really don't want to fall, but maybe offer a little encouragement as well. There is no magic recipe for when someone should be leading other than when THEY are ready and when YOU are willing to accept your duty of properly belaying them.

Different personalities respond to different personalities, well, differently. Live and think in the moment, try not to be too stupid, and try not to let other people be too stupid.

Arthur, you dumbass sexy sonofabitch, you misspelled assessed as accessed. See, that is how you help a brotha out by being both positive and negative and truthful and funny all at the same time.

pawilkes wrote:getting on routes that are above your ability has always bugged me. I don't understand why people prefer to flail on routes way to hard for them instead of working something they can do. this actually is like the point i made above about developing your abilities. becoming a solid 5.11 climber is going to help you send 5.12s more than falling up 5.12s will. it took me 5 years to get from 12a to 12b because I climbed a couple 12a's before i was ready for the grade. once i built up solid skills at 11+ to 12b, it took me 7 months to go from 12c to 13a. this was not because I became that much stronger, it was because i had a solid base of experience.

no value judgements here. just analysis.

1) how do you know your ability if you don't go above your comfort level?
2) being a solid 11 climber will help you comfortably climb 5.11 moves on 5.12s. they will not necessarily help you climb harder moves.
3) getting on a few 12's "before you are ready" doesn't mess up your progression through grades. it took you 5 years to go from 12a to 12b because you decided not to climb outside your comfort level.
4) it took you 7 months to go from 12c to 13a because you decided to try harder before you moved. had you kept to your previous pacing you would have sent 5.13a in 2017.
5) you were stronger from bouldering at the gym. your experience just allowed you to focus your strength.