RRC Archives

My point exactly. Easy is way too subjective to punish an entire group with.

Here's my thoughts (such as they are)

New climbers are by nature beginners. They will seek easy routes. The higher the concentration of routes, the more newbies will come. They will bring more newbies. I'm thinking the less beginners are catered to, the less likely they are to show up more than a few times before they get frustrated and quit. Hopefully, less easy routes will foster a mentor relationship with more experienced climbers that should know how not to fuck things up if the newbie is serious about climbing.

Toad wrote:Here's my thoughts (such as they are)

New climbers are by nature beginners. They will seek easy routes. The higher the concentration of routes, the more newbies will come. They will bring more newbies. I'm thinking the less beginners are catered to, the less likely they are to show up more than a few times before they get frustrated and quit. Hopefully, less easy routes will foster a mentor relationship with more experienced climbers that should know how not to fuck things up if the newbie is serious about climbing.

In general I might agree with you, especially ~10+ years ago. There are too many outdoor newbies who need no mentoring in sport climbing and who crush, but have zero ideals about outdoor ethics. So I don't know that we can assume that all the bad actors are climbing a specific grade and under.

In all fairness, some of the nastiest crags i have seen only have concentrations of 5.11 and harder routes. examples: bob marley and motherload have more shit and toilet paper than i have seen anywhere else (i am sure there are counter examples, but still).

sorry, just saw your comment bcombs, that might explain my observation

True about some newbies coming out of the gym climbing harder that I ever have or will. I don't claim to have the answers, but nothing is going to change unless something gets started somewhere. I don't think the world will end if we were to choose not to develop easy routes. If nothing changes in a few years, then go back and bolt them.

I think the approach and quality of the routes is about it.

You could probably write a formula: number of 4 star routes *distance from miguels * distance from parking area= how crowded it is.

bingo. we have a winner

Shamis wrote:I think the approach and quality of the routes is about it.

You could probably write a formula: number of 4 star routes *distance from miguels * distance from parking area= how crowded it is.

This is a good point. I'll restrict my comments to moderates, let's say 10d and under. Regarding quality, do you think it is perceived quality based on guidebook / online ratings only? In other words, for the majority of these folks, could they tell a 2 star 10a from a 4 star one? Obviously there are the standout routes that everyone knows are great, but in general. I'll give you an example, Unbridled at the unlode: http://www.redriverclimbing.com/RRCGuid ... te&id=1091 If we took 10 climbers who all climb in the 10+ range and took them out there, with no prior knowledge of the route, and then took a survey when they were done, what would the consensus be? My thinking is that it would be neutral to positive and star ratings in the 3-4 range. Because the route, regardless of true rock quality, was challenging for them. To me, that's why we are out there, to be challenged. In real life, 10 climbers probably haven't visited that route in total. I'm just sort of thinking out loud here... It seems like we could bolt more moderate moderates and spread out those crowds hording the 5 star moderates.

Wish we could put up rolling counter for crags like Roadside at the base of the trail. Basically two rollers with numbers 0 through 9 on each.. If you are going to the crag, you just add the number of climbers climbing at it... On a sign above is max crag allowance. Once it hits that number you walk away. Then on your way out, just reduce your number again. People wouldn't follow it, or may even artificially increase it to have it for themselves... but in a perfect world, it would be a simple solution to overcrowding.

Maybe put a camera on it with a live feed to Miguels... that might keep people honest.