Miguels raising money for steel

[Rotarypwr345704]

Thanks Artsay! I will donate and I understand what is being done and why. I just feel this is step one to making the Red safer, and I would like to see us take the initiative and not stop there! I hope my post didn't come off as trying to start a debate I am just hoping that we continue to do all we can. Not saying what is going on is bad, it just could be supplemented to make it better! If anyone agrees you can PM me and maybe we can toss some ideas around.

[Artsay]

Rotarypwr345704 - I agree with you completely (and piggy too for that matter). This weekend I saw someone take close to a factor 2 fall on Omaha at the Lode (climber ran out last two bolts and intentionally took a huge whipper, landing down in the bottom of the gully well below the belayer who got jacked up to the first bolt). Did they inspect the hardware before taking their leap of faith? Will they retire their rope from the fall? Do they even know what a factor 2 fall is???

Aluminum climbing hardware just doesn't cut it for this form of climbing (fall after fall after fall.....) and proper climbing education isn't being instilled by the climbing gyms breeding climbers these days. I don't know what the solution is but there's some crazy stuff going on in the Red these days....

[dustonian]

I love fixed steel draws as much as the next guy (Rifle and Maple are super nice now... all equipped and pimped out, even the 5.11's). But steel can wear huge grooves and get razor sharp too... if you doubt this go take a look at the first draw on Convicted. A lot of people seem to think steel is the answer is to many of the safety issues in the Red, but the fact of the matter is it is far from bombproof too (especially under the stress of lowering with abrasive RRG sand), and if equipping routes with "permanent-looking" steel draw and with quicklinks on the bolt hanger is going to encourage complacency, then in fact it is more dangerous. Steel draws still need to be inspected before blindly whipping on them just like aluminum draws... it is not a magical cure-all.

That said, new draws at Lode and other places would be nice and this is a great initiative. But I just feel things need to be kept in perspective regarding this perma-draw fad currently sweeping through the Red... it does not absolve the climber from the responsibility of checking what he or she clips. Ultimately I think a more "holisitic" approach to gear maintenance including bolts, quicklinks, dogbones, AND biners is better than just oversimplifying the matter and re-equipping everything with steel draws that a lot of people are now going to blindly trust forever without inspection (not that they don't do that anyway). Or better yet, just hang your own draws... it's really not that bad on 98% of routes.

Also, there is no way the fall you describe is anywhere near factor 2. Say you fall 199' on 200' of rope (the absolute worst you can do on a vertical route if the ground is level)... that's still less than factor 1. I hear what you're saying about the ground being lower than the belayer in the Lode, but the routes are a lot steeper too, so there is more rope out (ie. you fall vertically, but the rope runs nearly horizontally in many sections of the Madness cave).

[clif]

could one fall 60 feet on 30 feet of rope?

[dustonian]

Only on multipitch routes with no gear between the climber and belayer. Factor two can't really happen single-pitch climbing unless the climber falls in a bottomless pit and belayer stays up above... basically you would hit the deck long before any sort of factor two forces could be generated.

[pigsteak]

dustonian is finally right..that long fall is not a factor 2...

after all this time, he finally nailed something.

[clif]

and if the gear pulls? or, say, if the first of only a single pitch route starts out on an elevated stance...
it's not open to interpretation, really, is it? length of fall over length of rope 'out'.
i've never been to the madness cave but walking by to the easier stuff, but what i read in the post about a factor 2 fall seems plausible.
it could also happen at the zoo (MAYBE, whatever that route that trends right off the block)
peace-

[Artsay]

From what I saw, there was about 60 feet of rope out and the climber fell a good 90 feet, about 30 feet below the belayer. It was ridiculous.

[dustonian]

Wow that is ridiculous...he must have come super close to the ground. Gotta subtract those 15 feet of the belayer being pulled up to the first draw from the fall factor calculation tho... By that math, it would be a factor 1.25 if your 60' estimate is correct (don't forget the rope running at a 40-45 degree angle tho on the belayer side)...maybe a sad new record for shitty RRG belaying! Woulda been ground fall almost anywhere else....

[SCIN]

The long fall was stupid and scary for most of the people around. Factor ,2,3,455 or not.

Are perma draws really about safety? Man I must be dumb. I thought all these perms were going up because it sucks gigantic pigsteak nuts to clean these overhanging rigs! We stuck those perms on cell block and iniquity a few years ago and about 14,345 euros have whipped, tugged, and fallen on them since. They seem in pretty good shape. If one happens to be bad just swap it out with another! At least they'll last way longer than a shitty aluminum.

I actually have replaced all of my quick draws with full steel. My rack weighs about 20 pounds but it's getting me stronger and I don't have to worry about shitty aluminum.