RRC Archives

Ray, I think the OP was laying out a scenario where there
Are fixed lines and shiny new bolts and freshly cut trees.
Not rusty bolts from the 90's. There would be no argument
From me that those areas would be fair game. When there
Is evidence of work/development going on it would seem to me
The ethics would be similar to a red tag where the developer is
Respected to a degree. (or at least his equipment)

if its on open/community land i would simply talk to the current developers.

if the people developing it are not open to communication and sharing then they are douchebags and the area is fair game.

if its on land thats being developed as a public recreation area with long term plans in place then talking about it with everyone involved in the area will make sure everyone is on the same page and not creating future work or causing problems the new discovery crew doesnt know about.

plus, if said area has already seen trail work and such i do think you owe it to the people working on it to see if they had a gem or two picked out.

but in the end.. its your bed, you make it and have to sleep in it....how would you want the situation handled if it was reversed ?

For the snenerio you describe, find and talk with current developers, no question.

if you jug their fixed line, by default you have now entered into a relationship with those developers. find your own access, hang your own jug line, and you are good to go...

we are currently in a situation that has delicate access, and as such have decided to keep climbers to a minimum for the time being. to some this has come off as too heavy handed, but we are looking at it from a longer term perspective. those who have been to this area have been very gracious in understanding our decision. we truly want to share this place with others, but parking is a major issue, and one we want to combat it BEFORE it becomes a problem.

so yeah, the decent thing to do is talk to whomever put in that first sweat equity. as RRO said, how would you like to be treated if things were reversed?

that being said, I know of several miles of cliff line that hold potential, and I will gladly share this with you if you are serious about developing. you will need to contact the owners, build a relationship, gain access, build trails, bolt lines, clean holds, but it is out there...PM me.

in all reality, I have found out MOST folks do not want to do the unsung, hard work, so I am pretty sure the next stash of cliffs is safe.

not heavy handed at all.

btw, if this is truly a REAL scenario der uber, PM me the details and I can guarantee you I can get you in touch with whomever is working out there.

Since we're talking about a hypothetical, let's throw out some more hypotheticals....

Let's say the so-called "late comer" discovered this wall on his/her own before any ropes were hanging or trees were chopped. Would that make a difference? What if the "late comer" did a significant amount of trail work to the crag before any ropes were hanging or any other work were done. Would that change the scenario? Let's say you discover a wall you want to bolt and you see that someone has been working on a trail there. Is it your responsibility to attempt to contact that person and see if they are planning to bolt routes before you start, or should you just leave that crag alone altogether? My understanding has always been that, unless you own the land, it's first come, first served, and calling "dibs" on an entire wall has never been the practice anywhere I have climbed. Calling dibs on a route or two is fine, but an entire wall? Why not entire hollows? I claim Lee county!

As for hanging ropes, bolts, draws, etc. My understanding is that all of that is abandoned gear, and you leave it at your own risk. Isn't that the argument many on here have been making regarding "perma draws"? I have noticed that people around here leave ropes hanging forever, and for some reason there isn't any outrage about it, so if you came across a rope hanging in the woods, how would you know how long it's been there? Last I checked, there is a rope hanging at the Bronaugh Wall (and it's been there for years). Is that route still the "property" of the rope hanger? What is the statute of limitations for claiming a route by hanging your rope over it?

@pigsteak* No, I would not do that kind of thing. I would talk to the developers first.

excellent query Mike...why did this "late comer"not begin developing when they first spotted this new area?

but i do agree on the claiming of walls....super lame. the funny thing in all of this is there are probably under 10-12 people who own drills and actually develop more than 1-2 routes...to a person that I know, we are all cool amongst us as far as development goes...as we speak, I know of seven seperate crags being developed under the radar, each by different crews. there is somuch rock out there, there is very little need to infringe on the fun the others are having in the woods.

so I must ask, was the original question a hypothetical or reality? if real, can the person who bolted "over the top" of someone else explain their thinking? love to hear the other side.

Mike, while I think a developer does not own said cliff and you do pose interested thoughts...

The situation in question revolves around said person using the work of others to start bolting. Based on the scenario originally proposed the developers do not own the cliff line but they did put up the line the next guy used to get to the top. They built the trail he hiked in on, and and the wall he is bolting on was cleared of trees by their hands. While you make a point about there not being ownership of the wall and that there is, in essence, a free for all for these routes I would like to make another point. You, sir, are right on the facts of how legally this works. I am speaking beyond these facts, I would think while said new comer was not breaking any rules he was being respectful. He was also not treating these developers as he would like to be treated. What can be done in retaliation? Really not much. But it is still bad form. It is also the kind of thing that could make a developer bitter, less likely to share new routes/areas in the future as well as less likely to develop period. I don't think the question was about whether said new comer could bolt without contacting the crew that developed the crag, more of whether he should.

As with most things on this forum, while this may be hypothetical I would guess it is either based on actions that are not hypothetical or may not be in the future.