RRC Archives

dustonian wrote:One of many recommendations from manufacturers to retire aluminum carabiners after a drop:

http://www.ropesonline.net/index.php?op ... -and-links

(see Carabiners section)

So, there are a few engineers that say this is unnecessary. But there are countless reports of carabiners breaking with "no apparent cause" on an annual basis. Is this really something you want to take a risk on?

Of course manufacturers will say to retire gear. They don't want to take on any extra liability. Plus, they'll sell more gear. The gear is fine if it looks fine.

Remind me not to climb on your rack! Carabiners that look perfectly fine break every year. I have even seen locking steel carabiners, which are trusted implicitly in entertainment and industrial rigging, break below working load despite the absence of visible flaws. Trust dropped biners if you want, but don't delude yourself that it isn't increasing the level of risk you are accepting.

this coming from a bunch of guys whom I bet lower from manky sport anchors, and sawed half thru biners up there.....

Anchors are a non-issue for the most part as they are redundant and the load is relatively static (excluding burrs and sharp edges). There are some fixed draws with gnarly sharp edges on the rope-side biner that are a bigger concern... that and the rusty-ass bolts at a place like the Lode, for instance... just when you think sport climbing is "safe", yikes!

Thanks for all the input, split decision through the forum it seems. All the gear looks good but the biners are trash for sure. Just need to decide on the rest

Judd, do more research on Mountain Project. There are tons of posts, including actual tests done that show your gear is perfectly fine.

I will gladly take the biners off your hands..we can use them when bolting steep routes as a biner in the middle of the route. better yet, go replace a bunch of biners on popular worn out anchors...dustonian said the redundancy makes them not a factor in failure.

and btw, relying on non climbing spec bolts we put in the rock is waaaay more dangerous imo...so cimbing the first three bolts of any sport route is taking your life in your own hands.

I agree Piggie, cleaning biners and anchors are great places for suspect biners...anywhere failure isn't super critical and loads are low. I used to use all steel at anchors and fixed draws but now I'm too broke And you're right, the first 3 bolts of a sport climb with a questionable component in the system (belayer, bolt, biner) can be more dangerous than A4 on el cap...

pkananen, these "tests" you refer to are scientifically worthless. You would need an enormous sample size to pick up the statistical difference in risk between dropped vs non-dropped biners...we're talking about a change from .001% chance of failure to .003% as a conjecture... but that's still taking 3 times the risk because you were too cheap (or 'smart') to separate suspect gear from non-suspect for use in critical gear or bolt placements. A sample of 30 or even 300 biners doesn't even begin to give the statistical power necessary.

If I thought a 35 foot drop would render any piece of climbing gear unsafe (other than a helmet) I'd never have trusted the gear enough to take up climbing in the first place.

MYTH: "Carabiners are susceptible to hair-line fractures if they are dropped. These fractures cannot be seen by the naked eye, but can drastically weaken a carabiner. So NEVER DROP YOUR CARABINER. If you do, it is best to discard it immediately and replace it with a new one." (source: http://www.cbcnsw.org.au/docs/AbseilGuidelines.pdf)

REALITY: This is NOT TRUE of modern carabiners. First, the "grain" of the aluminum runs parallel to the stock, not perpendicular, so undetectable hairline fractures spontaneously causing carabiner failure just isn't true. Steve Nagode, a quality assurance engineer with REI, conducted an experiment in which carabiners were dropped six times from a distance of 10 meters onto a concrete floor. The breaking strength of the carabiners was then determined with a 50-kN load cell. The results: no reduction in strength was observed when comparing the dropped carabiners with carabiners that had not been dropped.

Black Diamond's website says this: "It's best to inspect dropped gear for dings and significant trauma. If only light scratching is visible and gate action is still good, there is a good chance it is fit for usage."

Taken from .. http://www.geir.com/mythbuster.html