BIG SINKING!!!
Not the 'southern region'!
RRGCC = Confused Sheep
ya'll have to excuse that boy... he likes to make sure folks know that the Murray Property is actually not even in the Red River watershed, and definitely not a part of the Red River Gorge. Technically, a lot of stuff isn't in the Red River Gorge Geological area, even if it is on National Forest land, but he don't complain about that.
I reckon we're actually climbing in the Cumberland Plateau. Climbing will continue to expand into the cumberland plateau, often in the DBNF and often on private land. It already has expanded from the Stanton and into the Morehead and London districts, as well as some stuff down around Big South Fork which is actually the same escarpment of land that the RRG is on. So, this was an unfortunate lack of foresite by the founders and namers of the Red River Gorge Climbers Coalition. We're trying to buy land and secure access to areas that aren't in the Red River Gorge at all. HA HA!!
Of course, the earliest pioneers had it right back in the 60s and around 1970 when the first "guidebook" (since we're on the subject) came out. It was entitled the Cumberland Climbers Guide. Too bad we didn't pay attention.
Now who's confused!
I reckon we're actually climbing in the Cumberland Plateau. Climbing will continue to expand into the cumberland plateau, often in the DBNF and often on private land. It already has expanded from the Stanton and into the Morehead and London districts, as well as some stuff down around Big South Fork which is actually the same escarpment of land that the RRG is on. So, this was an unfortunate lack of foresite by the founders and namers of the Red River Gorge Climbers Coalition. We're trying to buy land and secure access to areas that aren't in the Red River Gorge at all. HA HA!!
Of course, the earliest pioneers had it right back in the 60s and around 1970 when the first "guidebook" (since we're on the subject) came out. It was entitled the Cumberland Climbers Guide. Too bad we didn't pay attention.
Now who's confused!
[size=75]i may be weak, but i have bad technique[/size]
Great ponts Mr. Mayor! (Sorry - but I am visualizing "The Mayor" from the Powerpuff Girls!)
Part of this 'ownership' question can be understood as part of the emerging idea of 'open source' projects. They are projects where a group of people contribute to something (often a computer program) without the expectation that they will 'own' the end result and profit from it directly, the way that a for-profit business does. The big example of this is the Linux operating system. Linus Torvalds got the ball rolling, contributes tons of time to the project and is a kind of 'chief' of the project, but it doesn't 'belong' to anyone in particular the way that material objects belong to people. Every day, thousands of people contribute thousands of hours fixing and improving the project - it's really a 'community' that makes it happen.
It's a very different system than the traditional systems of individuals or businesses doing things with the expectation of 'ownership' that would allow direct profits. Instead, people figure that it's worth some of their time to have a 'free', high quality system, instead of paying some of their cash to buy someone else's (sometimes poor quality) product.
I'm happy to contribute a bit of my time and work to take Johnny's really good guidebook and make it into a really great guidebook that is constantly up-to-date, searchable, freely available and so on. At a billable $30 to $60 an hour for my time, I'm 'spending' a lot contributing to the online guide, compared to $25 for a printed guide, but that's how I value this project.
Part of this 'ownership' question can be understood as part of the emerging idea of 'open source' projects. They are projects where a group of people contribute to something (often a computer program) without the expectation that they will 'own' the end result and profit from it directly, the way that a for-profit business does. The big example of this is the Linux operating system. Linus Torvalds got the ball rolling, contributes tons of time to the project and is a kind of 'chief' of the project, but it doesn't 'belong' to anyone in particular the way that material objects belong to people. Every day, thousands of people contribute thousands of hours fixing and improving the project - it's really a 'community' that makes it happen.
It's a very different system than the traditional systems of individuals or businesses doing things with the expectation of 'ownership' that would allow direct profits. Instead, people figure that it's worth some of their time to have a 'free', high quality system, instead of paying some of their cash to buy someone else's (sometimes poor quality) product.
I'm happy to contribute a bit of my time and work to take Johnny's really good guidebook and make it into a really great guidebook that is constantly up-to-date, searchable, freely available and so on. At a billable $30 to $60 an hour for my time, I'm 'spending' a lot contributing to the online guide, compared to $25 for a printed guide, but that's how I value this project.
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Wicked Tribe
- Posts: 469
- Joined: Fri Jun 06, 2003 8:25 pm
Let me start by apologizing to Ray for whatever “shit” high-ranking members gave him for creating an on-line guide. I am sorry, Ray, for making you the scapegoat. You were first asked to help the RRGCC with an on-guide, by one set of people, and then given grief for doing so, by another set of people. That was not right, and we owe you an apology. Please chalk it up to many well-intended (but independent-minded) people trying to solve a problem the best way they can. It is a non-profit organizational hazard, especially, when we are all volunteers with good ideas, not “speaking with one voice.”
The RRGCC has announced that it will unveil a new on-guide to the Murray Property in conjunction with its fundraising efforts to purchase the property. Tomdarch very correctly pointed out that it was mostly about timing; there was not a consensus reached about any on-line guide (inside the RRGCC or among all of the FAs) for a long time; the RRGCC had not made a definitive decision about purchasing the Murray Property for a long time; it did not have plan; and the RRGCC had not decided how to was going to raise money but it realized it probably was going to have something to do with a guide to the area. But there are a couple of other points to be made about the RRGCC’s on-line guide to the Murray that I hope will help explain.
First, the RRGCC on-guide to the Murray Property is meant to assist in the Charity Route Auction to help in the bidding, sponsorship, and donation process, it is not meant to be a redundant guide to Ray’s excellent work. Or, meant to “compete” with Ray’s work. It will be part of the fundraising and as a necessary service at the web site.
Second, since the RRGCC is a local climbing grassroots organization dedicated to “protecting, promoting, and ensuring responsible climbing.” Therefore a significant amount of the info on the RRGCC on-guide to the Murray Property will be about “responsible climbing” and ways climbers can “give something back” (and I don’t just mean money, although that is certainly part of it) instead of just “taking” in the form of just coming there to climb, and leave. As the possible next owners of the Murray Property we also feel we are in the best position (not Ray, necessarily) to talk to climbers, as “the landowners,” about appropriate climber behavior. Another reason for a separate, but different guide, with a different focus and a different purpose.
The RRGCC very much appreciates Ray’s help and support, as we appreciates all climbers who love the Red as much as we do, and work with us constructively to make the Red the best climbing area we can, for all.
BTW: I Happen to agree with Wicked Tribe about the name “Southern Region” and prefer names like “Coal Bank Hollow” and “Bald Rock Fork.” Any other suggested names besides the just the crag names, or is “Big Sinking” the best?
Thanks,
Shannon
The RRGCC has announced that it will unveil a new on-guide to the Murray Property in conjunction with its fundraising efforts to purchase the property. Tomdarch very correctly pointed out that it was mostly about timing; there was not a consensus reached about any on-line guide (inside the RRGCC or among all of the FAs) for a long time; the RRGCC had not made a definitive decision about purchasing the Murray Property for a long time; it did not have plan; and the RRGCC had not decided how to was going to raise money but it realized it probably was going to have something to do with a guide to the area. But there are a couple of other points to be made about the RRGCC’s on-line guide to the Murray that I hope will help explain.
First, the RRGCC on-guide to the Murray Property is meant to assist in the Charity Route Auction to help in the bidding, sponsorship, and donation process, it is not meant to be a redundant guide to Ray’s excellent work. Or, meant to “compete” with Ray’s work. It will be part of the fundraising and as a necessary service at the web site.
Second, since the RRGCC is a local climbing grassroots organization dedicated to “protecting, promoting, and ensuring responsible climbing.” Therefore a significant amount of the info on the RRGCC on-guide to the Murray Property will be about “responsible climbing” and ways climbers can “give something back” (and I don’t just mean money, although that is certainly part of it) instead of just “taking” in the form of just coming there to climb, and leave. As the possible next owners of the Murray Property we also feel we are in the best position (not Ray, necessarily) to talk to climbers, as “the landowners,” about appropriate climber behavior. Another reason for a separate, but different guide, with a different focus and a different purpose.
The RRGCC very much appreciates Ray’s help and support, as we appreciates all climbers who love the Red as much as we do, and work with us constructively to make the Red the best climbing area we can, for all.
BTW: I Happen to agree with Wicked Tribe about the name “Southern Region” and prefer names like “Coal Bank Hollow” and “Bald Rock Fork.” Any other suggested names besides the just the crag names, or is “Big Sinking” the best?
Thanks,
Shannon
Cool Shannon. Thanks for clearing things up.
Also, I have no problems with anyone else creating an online guide. There's nothing to compete for as far as I'm concerned. I've already got a hot chick and I'm not making any money on this thing.
I was just confused about the whole flip-flop on the issue but you've cleared it up.
Thanks again and also thanks for your hard work.
Also, I have no problems with anyone else creating an online guide. There's nothing to compete for as far as I'm concerned. I've already got a hot chick and I'm not making any money on this thing.
I was just confused about the whole flip-flop on the issue but you've cleared it up.
Thanks again and also thanks for your hard work.