I was once pretty strongly pro-gun. I was brought up in a home with guns, taught gun safety at an early age, and like most young people, thought everyone else was raised pretty much like me.
These kinds of statements have started to turn me around:
Clevis Hitch wrote:...you're a target. Try to take my shit and your dentist may recognize you.
I recognize the purpose of the 2nd amendment, but when it starts to look like the majority gun owners are just looking for an excuse to shoot someone, it undermines the whole idea.
cliftongifford wrote:...they love Bushey's Patriot Act...
You can call it Obama's Patriot Act if you'd like. After all, Congress just renewed it without even attempting any changes to that evil bill and Obama signed it without so much as a pause to think.
At some point, Obama and his supporters are gonna have to take ownership of something...
As for the 2nd, I whole heartedly support it. More than most. I believe the machine gun ban should be repealed, as well. I believe the 2nd amendment was also put in place to keep the government in check. The founding fathers knew tyranny could grow and thrive when the population is unarmed. They also knew an armed citizenry overthrew the most powerful army in the world.
We, arguably, have the most powerful military in the world (I'm a bit biased ). If some day there was an uprising to overthrow a tyrannical government, the general populace would be severely outgunned.
There is no longer that check on tyranny. There is no longer a healthy fear by our government of the people. The government has no fear of reprisals. Look at various laws concerning States of Emergency. Many contain clauses that disarm citizens. Sometimes, in extreme circumstances, this is done by force. States of Emergency limit or cancel many rights, and it is no coincidence that gun ownership and use is one of them.
If the machine gun ban did not exist and there was no limitations on what the public could own, governors and mayors and presidents might think real hard about signing away freedoms because of snow or flooding or hurricanes. If the door to door collection of weapons was targeting an equally armed population, they might not decide to send their soldiers and officers into harms way when the very house they are raiding might fight back with their own flash bang grenades and M240G.
So, yes, I believe in the 2nd to an arguably looney extent
cliftongifford wrote:...they love Bushey's Patriot Act...
You can call it Obama's Patriot Act if you'd like. After all, Congress just renewed it without even attempting any changes to that evil bill and Obama signed it without so much as a pause to think.
At some point, Obama and his supporters are gonna have to take ownership...
I definitely didn't vote for Obama and agree whole-heartedly with you're entire post. The whole system is fucked. What I don't understand is how you end up in the military, in Afghanistan, bombing people who hold true the same values of nationalism and government non-interventionism as you? You're a foreign invader disarming a nation, right?
Actually, a lack of nationalism is the bigger problem, here. You get away from some of the more populated areas and you don't see a national identity. It's a concept people don't even really understand. Local government is all they really see and know. They truly believe that Karzai is just the mayor of Kabul. But that's a different cultural issue, as well...
I'm also here on a different mission. I provide security for an Agribusiness Development Team. They work closely with the Department of Agriculture, Irrigation, and Land. We provide education, training and resources in those areas. In addition to working closely with the DAILs in our five provinces, we also work directly with village and community leaders. That's our main mission. As a little extra, we've taken it upon ourselves to refurbish several of the local schools. Desks, school supplies, books, etc...
I did specifically volunteer for this mission, but I knew full well that I was not here to kick ass and bomb the hell out of people. I am here specifically to improve their lives. Hell, we go places where we specifically disarm ourselves just so we don't put off those bad occupying force vibes...
I reject the "separation from church and state" argument. The constitution states "freedom of religion" not "freedom from religion". The intent was to prevent the government from forcing faith on people like was done with the church of england. There is nothing unconstitutional about a Christmas tree, the 10 commandments being displayed, God being mentioned in the pledge, "In God We Trust" on our currency, etc.
I've been a gumby longer than you've been climbing.
caribe, This is from yesterday's hearing, and I think it gets right to the point:
Breyer pointed to Chicago's ban on handguns and asked the gun-rights lawyer skeptically, "You are saying that even if they are saving hundreds of lives, they cannot ban them?"
But Justice Antonin Scalia was quick to rebut Breyer's safety argument.
"Why would this one be resolved on the basis of statistics?" he asked, and noted that Miranda freedoms sometimes allow dangerous people to walk free after they have confessed a crime because their confessions can't be admitted in court.
Just because you can come up with statics and/or anecdotal evidence that, say, rap music leads to crimes, you cannot ban it. Or maybe, the state/city you live in is 95% conservative Christians and they find some *proof* that criticizing their religion causes teen pregnancies, and they try to make it a felony offense to do so. They would fail because of the bill of rights. Maybe they decide that women baring any bare skin *causes* rapes, so they make them wrap up. Again, not going to happen as long as the 14th is there. Gun ownership is the same - this case is just giving it the status it should have had long ago, with freedom of speech, etc. If you can't support the 2nd, then you should really question why you would support any of the others - they are on the same piece of paper, and written by the same people.
Above and beyond that, a gun absolutely will not discharge on it's own. Much like a car cannot start itself and cross the median and hit another car head on, a gun, in an of itself, can cause no harm. They are not any more or less evil then a car.
One last point: gun laws only create asymmetry between people who follow the rules (more or less) and those that disregard them. Felons are already banned from owning any firearm, yet they have no problem having one. So, banning a mostly lawful person from owning one only make them unable to match the force that can be directed their way. Even if you are willing to be a passive, non-violent victim, are you also ready to stand by and watch a loved one be assaulted and killed? Even the Dalali Lama has this: "If someone has a gun and is trying to kill you, it would be reasonable to shoot back with your own gun." (May 15, 2001, The Seattle Times) and one the other end of the spectrum: "To my mind it is wholly irresponsible to go into the world incapable of preventing violence, injury, crime, and death. How feeble is the mindset to accept defenselessness. How unnatural. How cheap. How cowardly. How pathetic."
- Ted Nugent
Nonaggression does not mean nonviolence. Guns are just another tool in the belt of protecting yourself in what can be a pretty crazy world.
PS, Xtant, in KY, as long as you are legally allowed to own a firearm, are willing to take care of some paperwork and pay $200.00 for a tax stamp, you are totally, legally allowed to own fully automatic weapons, along with suppressors, etc. Of course, buying a full auto is crazy money these days - maybe 10k for a m-16, where the a good semi auto AR-15 can be had for under $1000.
michaelarmand, Of course you would. But, how do you explain banning Sunday alcohol sales, banning gay marriage, editing history and biology in textbooks by elected school board members? Those are religious people imposing their beliefs on others. Period.
). If some day there was an uprising to overthrow a tyrannical government, the general populace would be severely outgunned. 
