Statistics about the *** Ratings
i would be curious as to how the star rating look when we look at only 12.b and up routes. it seems to me that when you start hitting these grades the star ratings become a little more along the lines of the arguement that they all have high ratings. it seems to me that the star ratings lean towards very few hard routes having low amounts of stars, yet i think i have climbed some hard crap.
maybe i should just vote more though...
maybe i should just vote more though...
Ask and you shall receive:i would be curious as to how the star rating look when we look at only 12.b and up routes.
*** Ratings for climbs 5.12b => 5.14d
Guide Rating: 249 routes raded
Choss: 13
* 7
** 25
*** 51
**** 88
***** 65
User Rating: 249 routes rated
zero * 51
* 0
** 7
*** 33
**** 113
***** 45
So, there you have it!
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the lurkist
- Posts: 2240
- Joined: Wed Nov 13, 2002 2:07 pm
Let's change the discussion to grading. There is the BIG turd in the punch bowl that needs to be pointed out, because it is flavoring everyone's water yet we are all getting used to the taste.
I have heard that Ray is going to amend grades on many routes with his next edition of the guide. Good. We all know and it has been discussed many times how inflated grades are on many climbs. I hope that some serious re alignment is made to rectify this. And to this end I am totally okay with one person being the final arbiter of grades. Ray, for instance, is probably the most qualified to say what is 5.10 a,b,c,d - 5.13a,b,c,d etc... He and Michelle have climbed prob every route in the area.
I just think there needs to be a few standard bearer routes for each grade and stick to it to grade other routes. I would favor these standard bearer routes to be older routes were grading was a bit more severe, i.e. a route had to surpass a certain threshold of difficulty to be a 12a , for example.
A case in point. I recently got on the two hard Jeff Moll 5.11s (11c and d) over on the front of Torrent (approaching Mark's property). That 11d was burly and pushed the threshold of 11d, but is 11d. It should hold the line for 11d.
Look, I know it is subjective and can become a pissing match. That is why one person should make the final decision. And yes, if all of the routes I put up are now 10a, great.
The point is, I don't want to open up a discussion on what individual route is graded, but to acknowledge that the overall dilution of grades is occurring and someone (like a well informed guide book author) needs to reset standards.
Please feel free to open in another thread and probably the hijacked forum, b/c this is where this is headed, I fear.
the lurkist
I have heard that Ray is going to amend grades on many routes with his next edition of the guide. Good. We all know and it has been discussed many times how inflated grades are on many climbs. I hope that some serious re alignment is made to rectify this. And to this end I am totally okay with one person being the final arbiter of grades. Ray, for instance, is probably the most qualified to say what is 5.10 a,b,c,d - 5.13a,b,c,d etc... He and Michelle have climbed prob every route in the area.
I just think there needs to be a few standard bearer routes for each grade and stick to it to grade other routes. I would favor these standard bearer routes to be older routes were grading was a bit more severe, i.e. a route had to surpass a certain threshold of difficulty to be a 12a , for example.
A case in point. I recently got on the two hard Jeff Moll 5.11s (11c and d) over on the front of Torrent (approaching Mark's property). That 11d was burly and pushed the threshold of 11d, but is 11d. It should hold the line for 11d.
Look, I know it is subjective and can become a pissing match. That is why one person should make the final decision. And yes, if all of the routes I put up are now 10a, great.
The point is, I don't want to open up a discussion on what individual route is graded, but to acknowledge that the overall dilution of grades is occurring and someone (like a well informed guide book author) needs to reset standards.
Please feel free to open in another thread and probably the hijacked forum, b/c this is where this is headed, I fear.
the lurkist
"It really is all good ! My thinking only occasionally calls it differently..."
Normie
Normie
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tbwilsonky
- Posts: 868
- Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2004 9:38 pm
a sovereign "decider" in the last instance. i couldn't agree more. as much as i abhor ayn rand, she had a point: democracy tends towards grade inflation.the lurkist wrote: Look, I know it is subjective and can become a pissing match. That is why one person should make the final decision.
-t
haunted.
I've recently dropped a lot of stars on routes that were starred too high. The "formula" I use is to look at what the consensus is, maybe round down (rarely up), and use my own judgment. I'm going to be more difficult with giving high stars to a route than before. These changes have been made recently in the online guide so the myth probably was true but no longer is.
Some grades will be changed too. I was trying to stick with Bronaugh's golden rule of not messing with a grade unless it's 2 letter grades off but some routes still begged to be dropped (Manifest Destiny for example) even though they're only 1 letter grade off. This doesn't mean I'm going to be dropping grades left and right but I definitely will be on stars. I hate hearing that I've misled someone into getting on a pile. I'd rather them say a route needs more stars than less. That way I won't feel like I wasted the time of some dude who drove 15 hours to climb at the Red.
There is such a thing as 0 stars. You can't vote 0 stars but I can climb a route and read comments to figure it out.
Some grades will be changed too. I was trying to stick with Bronaugh's golden rule of not messing with a grade unless it's 2 letter grades off but some routes still begged to be dropped (Manifest Destiny for example) even though they're only 1 letter grade off. This doesn't mean I'm going to be dropping grades left and right but I definitely will be on stars. I hate hearing that I've misled someone into getting on a pile. I'd rather them say a route needs more stars than less. That way I won't feel like I wasted the time of some dude who drove 15 hours to climb at the Red.
There is such a thing as 0 stars. You can't vote 0 stars but I can climb a route and read comments to figure it out.
Yo Ray jack dynomite! Listen to my beat box! Bew ch ch pff BEW ch ch pfff! Sweet!
-Horatio
-Horatio
I think for the most part the stars are right on. The only exceptions I have ever come accross were routs that were put in the book recently after their developement. No one had really climbed them yet but their rating was high. For instance the 5star 12 at the far left of vol wall. When I got on it, it had obviouslsy only seen one or two sends and was mostly a chossy sharp pile. It may clean up though. I think most of the routs that have seen a few sends are right on. So there are a lot of 4 star routs, well....there are a lot of 4 star routs....must do's at a particular crag, thats why the red is great
How you compare may not be as important as to whom you are compared
bump
what is my opinion you ask? oh, you didn't. well i'll tell you anyway.
eastern sky bridge ridge should be the benchmark.
drop the anchor = 5.8
no return = 5.9
doppler effect = 10b
king me = 11b
etc.
the lurkist wrote:Let's change the discussion to grading. There is the BIG turd in the punch bowl that needs to be pointed out, because it is flavoring everyone's water yet we are all getting used to the taste.
countless pages of the same old and tired topics, but nothing when the lurkist suggests that grades are *gasp* getting soft? come on folks, i wanna hear everyones take on this.the lurkist wrote:The point is, I don't want to open up a discussion on what individual route is graded, but to acknowledge that the overall dilution of grades is occurring and someone (like a well informed guide book author) needs to reset standards.
what is my opinion you ask? oh, you didn't. well i'll tell you anyway.
eastern sky bridge ridge should be the benchmark.
drop the anchor = 5.8
no return = 5.9
doppler effect = 10b
king me = 11b
etc.
buy the Ticket take the Ride
yeah, and don't forgetahab wrote:bumpthe lurkist wrote:Let's change the discussion to grading. There is the BIG turd in the punch bowl that needs to be pointed out, because it is flavoring everyone's water yet we are all getting used to the taste.countless pages of the same old and tired topics, but nothing when the lurkist suggests that grades are *gasp* getting soft? come on folks, i wanna hear everyones take on this.the lurkist wrote:The point is, I don't want to open up a discussion on what individual route is graded, but to acknowledge that the overall dilution of grades is occurring and someone (like a well informed guide book author) needs to reset standards.
what is my opinion you ask? oh, you didn't. well i'll tell you anyway.
eastern sky bridge ridge should be the benchmark.
drop the anchor = 5.8
no return = 5.9
doppler effect = 10b
king me = 11b
etc.
soul ram = 12b
How you compare may not be as important as to whom you are compared