RRC Archives

y'all are getting old and crusty....wah, wah, wah

Ask Todd Skinner about experience.

Essentially every time you get off the deck you have the potential to blow it for yourself and others. In the years I've been climbing I haven't seen the potential to screw up decrease, probably more along the lines of increase with all the new tools and all the new climbers.

Never having an accident doesn't mean you're safe, it means you're lucky.

Every time you do anything you need to appreciate how easy it is for something in the relatively complex system to break down. I think people fail to appreciate a lot of the failures we've heard about are just as much bad instinct as inattention or conscious mistakes. Falls happen quickly, and if you don't do what you should instinctively, things may go bad.

caribe wrote:.....We are going to see more of these accidents. Mind the [brake] at all times in all belay devices with all ropes......

Be safe everyone, safer than you were last time, cause I hate seeing people hurting.

it also depends on you looking out for people coming after you. replacing worn permadraws, tightening loose bolts, pulling off dangerously loose holds. You never know if the next guy will be knowledgeable enough to notice that stuff.

caribe wrote: If you release the hand to manage the device and the situation, keep a visual on the climber and keep the hand at a point that allows you to check the rope--ie, you are only an instant away from the break end at any point.

I feel like i should add some two cents to this. It is NEVER acceptable to remove your brake hand from the rope, even when using a Grigri!! They are safe alternatives/techiques to feed slack with a grigri without removing your brake hand to hold down the cam of the Grigri.

I have seen way too many misuse a grigri, and yes, even local guys that climb hard. I see people go hands-free and put their hands in their pockets while the climber shakes on a jug. Just because a grigri is SUPPOSED to auto-lock, doesnt mean that is WILL!!!

Savage wrote:I have seen way too many misuse a grigri, and yes, even local guys that climb hard. I see people go hands-free and put their hands in their pockets while the climber shakes on a jug. Just because a grigri is SUPPOSED to auto-lock, doesnt mean that is WILL!!!

Unless your rope is ridiculously thin (probably less than 9.0) The gri-gri WILL lock. A heavily worn gri-gri can allow a slick rope to start to slowly slip, but any fall will cause it to lock.

The only reason to worry about the break hand on a gri-gri is when you have it threaded backwards, in which case you can still hold a fall if you treat the gri-gri like an ATC. In fact, the only time I've ever seen gri-gri incidents (I've seen 3 people get dropped while being belayed on a gri gri) is when the belayer panics and squeezes the device. Gri-Gri's are probably safest when you just let go.

pigsteak wrote:red tagged route maybe that wasn't fully brushed?

don't go bringing karma into this piggy. Be safe, do as I say, not as I do..

Shamis wrote:

Savage wrote:I have seen way too many misuse a grigri, and yes, even local guys that climb hard. I see people go hands-free and put their hands in their pockets while the climber shakes on a jug. Just because a grigri is SUPPOSED to auto-lock, doesnt mean that is WILL!!!

Unless your rope is ridiculously thin (probably less than 9.0) The gri-gri WILL lock. A heavily worn gri-gri can allow a slick rope to start to slowly slip, but any fall will cause it to lock.

The only reason to worry about the break hand on a gri-gri is when you have it threaded backwards, in which case you can still hold a fall if you treat the gri-gri like an ATC. In fact, the only time I've ever seen gri-gri incidents (I've seen 3 people get dropped while being belayed on a gri gri) is when the belayer panics and squeezes the device. Gri-Gri's are probably safest when you just let go.

NOT TRUE!

I've actually witnessed several incidents where heavily worn Gri-Gri's failed to lock on a thin rope, all in instances where the Gri-Gri was threaded correctly. This can especially happen when the climber is hanging locked off, then comes slightly back onto the rock, then lets go. Especially with a thin rope the Gri-Gri can fail to re-engage, and the climber drops with startling quickness.

That you can easily belay with an improperly loaded Gri-Gri ATC style is another myth. Gri-Gri's don't have any of the sharp bends necessary for stopping friction, and it can be near impossible to keep rope from feeding out, particularly in the event of a dynamic fall.

They are handy tools, but by no means foolproof. For the sake of the entire climbing community, if you must use a Gri-Gri, please use it with the utmost of diligence!

Jay wrote:NOT TRUE!

I've actually witnessed several incidents where heavily worn Gri-Gri's failed to lock on a thin rope, all in instances where the Gri-Gri was threaded correctly. This can especially happen when the climber is hanging locked off, then comes slightly back onto the rock, then lets go. Especially with a thin rope the Gri-Gri can fail to re-engage, and the climber drops with startling quickness.

how thin was the rope? and how old was the gri-gri? Also, how much did the climber weigh?

I've seen the same thing happen in a gym. But once the rope started slipping, the belayer pinched the gri-gri in panic. I suppose its possible it could happen without pinching if the clmber was really light, the rope really thin and slick, and the gri-gri very worn. But you shouldn't allow those 3 things to happen.

That you can easily belay with an improperly loaded Gri-Gri ATC style is another myth. Gri-Gri's don't have any of the sharp bends necessary for stopping friction, and it can be near impossible to keep rope from feeding out, particularly in the event of a dynamic fall.

I never said it was easy. But it is doable, and I have done it.

Shamis wrote:Gri-Gri's are probably safest when you just let go.

Call up petzl and see if they agree with you. I can guarantee they will tell you to keep your brakehand on the rope. Why? Because they are not willing to risk the chance that it could possibly not lock. That chance is the reason why you shouldnt let go. I realize the likelihood of it not locking is SUPER low (if using correct dia. of rope), but why risk it?

And really good point in saying the accidents you see are from people holding down the cam and forgetting to let go or whatever. My true point is trying to warn people not to hold the cam down (which means you never let go of the brake) because that is how accidents happen.

Petzl even has a recommend technique, and it does not involve letting go of the brake hand.

In a perfect world where people don't screw up, yes it would be safer to always hold the break hand, but with beginner belayers, or even worse, people who have only belayed on an atc before, I have seen more problems from them trying too hard to belay when they really don't need to do much.

And obviously Petzl will tell you anything to limit their own liability. Them telling you to hold the break hand is like the pharmacist labeling every single drug bottle with "do not take with alcohol" even though only some of the drugs require it. They are trying to cover their ass legally, because they know some jackass will try to use the gri-gri on an icy 8mm rope and sue them when it doesn't hold.