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also, i voted for trad, because there is a higher percentage of routes with placements that have been more strenuous for me vs. clipping a pre-hung draw.

Horatio Felacio wrote:also, i voted for trad, because there is a higher percentage of routes with placements that have been more strenuous for me vs. clipping a pre-hung draw.

But doesn't "at your limit" still equal "at your limit", regardless of the style, number, or reason?

512OW wrote:.

However, most cracks don't deserve a higher grade for gear placement. There isn't a single placement that ups the grade on The Inhibitor, Rock Wars, Hidden Dragon, Welcome To Ole Kentuck, blah blah blah.

The little quiz thingy did say "at your limit". From a personal standpoint, and not a "climbing community grade consensus" standpoint, when I am climbing at my limit it is harder for me to flash a route:

1) Placing gear
2) Clipping draws
3) Top roping (because as Ray says the rope gets in the way)
4) Bouldering

My hardest free moves to date are on a boulder, my next hardest moves were on top rope, then sport, then trad.

It's not that I think placing gear makes a route technically harder. I agree completely that gear placements do not change the overall grade. But for my personal effort at my limit there is a difference.

If I'm barely making the moves I am more likely to fail if I have to fiddle with a camlock (if you don't know, don't ask). If I can drop the rope in a prehung draw then I can conserve energy for the send. Didn't change the movement over stone, just the energy required to do so.

If pro didn't matter then there wouldn't have been such a fuss over the ethics of yo-yoing vs. redpointing vs. onsighting vs. top roping vs. soloing throughout the history of technical rock climbing.

this is thread is fucking retarded.

Ascentionist wrote:

512OW wrote:.

However, most cracks don't deserve a higher grade for gear placement. There isn't a single placement that ups the grade on The Inhibitor, Rock Wars, Hidden Dragon, Welcome To Ole Kentuck, blah blah blah.

The little quiz thingy did say "at your limit". From a personal standpoint, and not a "climbing community grade consensus" standpoint, when I am climbing at my limit it is harder for me to flash a route:

1) Placing gear
2) Clipping draws
3) Top roping (because as Ray says the rope gets in the way)
4) Bouldering

My hardest free moves to date are on a boulder, my next hardest moves were on top rope, then sport, then trad.

It's not that I think placing gear makes a route technically harder. I agree completely that gear placements do not change the overall grade. But for my personal effort at my limit there is a difference.

If I'm barely making the moves I am more likely to fail if I have to fiddle with a camlock (if you don't know, don't ask). If I can drop the rope in a prehung draw then I can conserve energy for the send. Didn't change the movement over stone, just the energy required to do so.

If pro didn't matter then there wouldn't have been such a fuss over the ethics of yo-yoing vs. redpointing vs. onsighting vs. top roping vs. soloing throughout the history of technical rock climbing.

You're still using the term "at your limit" to mean the difficulty of the moves... but that isn't what was asked, or should be asked. In any type of climbing, you can't boil it down to only the moves... and since all things are involved, "at your limit" should be a combination of all things. While "at your limit" may be a different number for each discipline, "at your limit" is still "at your limit".

512OW wrote:

Horatio Felacio wrote:also, i voted for trad, because there is a higher percentage of routes with placements that have been more strenuous for me vs. clipping a pre-hung draw.

But doesn't "at your limit" still equal "at your limit", regardless of the style, number, or reason?

i really have no idea what you are talking about. in fact, i just read the question to the poll, and have no idea what it means, nor what this poll is about.

Its about lemon trees and pumpernickel bread. Duh.

Horatio Felacio wrote:also, i voted for trad, because there is a higher percentage of routes with placements that have been more strenuous for me vs. clipping a pre-hung draw.

But what if, as was said before, you mechanize up the redundancy in (reference just_climb's post from last Tuesday) and try to determine through your placements whether you are truly satisfying the concepts of said free climbing as was done in the latter years on rock climbs which may not really be true free climbs at all. Answer that Matt.

K-Mart. Definitely K-Mart.

Butt naked trad. This thread could go on for months and there still will be no clear decision. Nice poll to get us all fired up again.