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I do know the answer to my own question. But I asked because I wonder if you did? No I am not a local. But do not make the mistake that I am unaware of who people are.

Matt & Amy are two of the finest people I have ever had the pleasure to know. They are hard working and generous and there is nothing they wouldn't (and haven't!) done for a friend, for climbing, for the community of Slade, and for humanity in general. They have contributed more money and sweat to the Red River Gorge than most of the rest of us combined.

I know what they have done and I think it's a beautiful thing. I also think that theirs is a tragic loss but I believe they WILL recover. To make a statement that any decision against them is a bad decision just doesn't hold water. Because it's about more than them. And they understand that. That is why they give themselves to the greater good.

One could argue that Mr. Weber wasn't doing what was for the better good offering free guide service. Maybe, I see that side. Did he have other intentions? Who of us could really answer? I have been sticking up for Mr. Weber because he, just like others, have given a great deal to the climbing community.

There's a delicate balance that must be attained in order for there to be any progress in this matter. And it's just my own humble opinion that such extremists views (such as one to say that any decision that affects one party is a bad decision) will not contribute to an end that is beneficial to everyone. Because it is about more than the Webers and it is more than Matt and Amy and you and I.

Just my two cents.

But as someone who gets to visit such a beautiful place, Thanks to all who have donated themselves to making the Red River what it is

dude, I didn't make the original statement and I think we probably agree on this issue based on what you state above, but what needs to be understood is that we are a community that takes care of our own. So I would amend mcrib's statement to say "any decision that adversely effects the livelihood of RRO, TNO and other local guide services is a bad decision." Especially when that decision has not been carefully thought out or discussed with the parties involved. Professional guiding services are a source of income to these businesses, to these people who matter a great deal to us (just as the Webers matter), not something they do for kicks or so they will have someone to climb with.

Well, it saddens me that all this paradoxically ends up in the forum Climbing Community. IMHO the crux of the problem is not the players or even the topic, but the forum.

Think about it. We are all chimps. We can't read each other's facial expressions. Communication here is not in real time. One party writes a paragraph and the other party reads it. In response to 1 or 2 items in the paragraph the other party fires back. Text does not have enough chimp talk and enough connection to the time stream in it for civil discourse about issues this close to the heart.

R. Weber, L. Weber, Tacket and Kennedy need to meet to remove the forum problem from the argument. Perhaps they can find enough common ground to mend fences. I suspect this tete a tete a tete a tete would work swimmingly.

At least no one has accused anyone of possessing WMDs.

Rotarypwr345704- what is your opinion of very famous and influential people who use public restrooms and continue to simultaneously converse on their cell phones while expecting some level of privacy? Jus wanted the gumby perspective

caribe, I so totally agree with you. My first thought was that this is not a healthy place for real life decisions... seems like that should be obvious. I hope the parties involved can renew their spirit of cooperation and their good relations.

KD, too funny, man!

Hey pru,

We are in agreement and I completely understand the viewpoint of the guides. All I was trying to say is that there is more than one side to every situation and it just seems that everyone is so trigger happy and hasn't taken the time to found out the Weber's point of view.

I don't know what Mr. Weber was trying to achieve, but from the looks of it he might be doing something that is detrimental to the area and I am not in favor if that is the case.

BUT. With that said, I don't know his side and I'm not sure any of us do. Therefore, we cannot make an educated decision on the matter. My only point. I apologize if it came off as offensive. It was not my intention.


As far as bathrooms go, don't drop your phone in the toilet. They're expensive

pru wrote:because of one anonymous post?? Surely this is just an angry, knee-jerk reaction.

can you imagine if che guevara had posted anonymously? he NEVER would have made it on to all those rage against the machine t-shirts. (then again he probably wouldn't have been killed, had his hands chopped off and buried under an airstrip in bolivia.) i'm not there must know that....

truth be told. the whole situation makes me very very

i hold out hope that it will end happily.

If it was my actions that angered or offended you, I should be punished. Punishing others as a result is cruel, inhumane, and frankly quite scary. I'm not saying you shouldn't be angry and frustrated, just that hurting innocent people isn't the way to make things right.

I recognize there's no direct way to punish me. Still, displaced aggression is an intensely dangerous thing to society.

I won't be stepping forward from the shadows on this one. For that, I'm sorry - not apologetic, just that I empathize. The reason: there is plenty of room in democracy for the anonymous expression of believe. Voting is anonymous, emergency calls are anonymous, harassment claims can often be made anonymously. The examples continue, are broad, and are powerful.

The main point is, though, that this is not the way to handle the situation. I say that sincerely and not with any intention of lecturing anyone.

Why was there a public announcement made on the board about no longer letting local guide services work at Muir other than to publicly call them out for not having up to date insurance? Am I missing something?

Our insurance is up to date and Muir is listed as "additional insured". Athough Liz has her reason, we discuss this in another thread, and respect her decision. It is NOT because TNO's insurance.