Somethin to think about...

[sendit]

There are quite a few routes like this, Head and Shoulders at Drive By comes to mind- tough, somewhat blind placements but definitely a route that can (should?) stand on its own w/o bolts.

[tomdarch]

Oh snap! The door has been opened!

a route that can (should?) stand on its own w/o bolts

Really? What gives trad routes supremacy over sport routes?

Let's flip it around: "The rock on either side of that crack can take bolts. It's a route that can (should?) be bolted so that it can stand on it's own without gear."

Think about your original post - you pointed out that a bolted route could be led without clipping the bolts (except, of course for the anchor bolts, I assume. But those don't seem to "count," do they?). It sounds like none of the bolts interfered with the gear placements, so the bolts don't take away from a gear ascent. Typically, bolts don't prevent gear ascents, but pulling (or not placing bolts) makes sport ascents impossible.

(I'm mainly chain-pulling here. Most really good trad routes should be left unbolted. But I do think that there should be a few true crack routes in any given large climbing area that should be bolted so that folks without racks can experience crack/trad movement.)

[sendit]

But I do think that there should be a few true crack routes in any given large climbing area that should be bolted so that folks without racks can experience crack/trad movement.)

I'll refer you to Zac's signature line - It's all about Style...

[Sandman]

"But I do think that there should be a few true crack routes in any given large climbing area that should be bolted so that folks without racks can experience crack/trad movement.)"

Thats about the worst thing ive ever heard, its that attitude that is dumbing down climbing. The idea that it should ALWAYS be safe, and easily do able for any one. Bottom line is that ethics are being lost... if a routes nature is that it cannot be protected by natural gear that will hold falls safely, then bolt it.
If there are sections of a sport route that can take gear then it most likely should be a mixed route, although that in most cases it should be left to the discretion of the first ascentionist, except where a VERY obvious crack is present. PURE GEAR LINES SHOULD NEVER EVER EVER BE BOLTED. Im sorry if "someone" w/o a rack cannot experience that movement, but guess what!!!!! they can get gear, get educated and go do it!!!!

Lets all do our part to keep the fucking spirit alive. and not turn this shit into a fucking padded playground.
Think about it.... sex use to be safe and climbing use to be dangerous
I'd like to see those days return... cliffs are crowded and condoms suck

[Danny]

I do think that there should be a few true crack routes in any given large climbing area that should be bolted so that folks without racks can experience crack/trad movement.)

Sounds like a virulent disease.

[ynot]

Bolting cracks sets a bad example.

[captain static]

I'm sure Fly'n Brian would have been more than capable of leading this climb on lead yet he chose to bolt it.

[512OW]

I'm sure Fly'n Brian would have been more than capable of leading this climb on lead yet he chose to bolt it.

Umm.... as opposed to leading it on toprope? What exactly is leading on lead?

[512OW]

Thats about the worst thing ive ever heard, its that attitude that is dumbing down climbing. The idea that it should ALWAYS be safe, and easily do able for any one. Bottom line is that ethics are being lost... if a routes nature is that it cannot be protected by natural gear that will hold falls safely, then bolt it.
If there are sections of a sport route that can take gear then it most likely should be a mixed route, although that in most cases it should be left to the discretion of the first ascentionist, except where a VERY obvious crack is present. PURE GEAR LINES SHOULD NEVER EVER EVER BE BOLTED. Im sorry if "someone" w/o a rack cannot experience that movement, but guess what!!!!! they can get gear, get educated and go do it!!!!

Lets all do our part to keep the fucking spirit alive. and not turn this shit into a fucking padded playground.
Think about it.... sex use to be safe and climbing use to be dangerous
I'd like to see those days return... cliffs are crowded and condoms suck

Word to that. I'm currently in love with sport climbing, but it does irk me a little when obvious cracks are bolted. Things like "Head and Shoulders", which are maybe 11b with bolts, would be way cooler on gear... and retain a little mystique. There is enough of both to go around... why homogenize the whole deal?

[Horatio Felacio]

do you ever type a really long response, then decide to not post it?