whatever happened to onsight climbing???

[J-Rock]

I see your point, Paul, but I think there are way bigger environmental issues than chalk on rock.

True, but perhaps you were not aware that it was largely because of a photographer in Idaho who complained about excessive chalk on rocks that spurred a reinterest in the Wilderness Act of 1964 and stricter guidelines for climbers...

[Alan Evil]

And just because it's a small matter doesn't mean that it doesn't matter. I doubt any (ok very many) of the readers of this list throw beer cans into the Red or spray paint graffiti on their friends' houses. But you'll hike up into the woods and leave a bunch of chalk arrows and tick marks all over the rock. We're going to leave a mark no matter what we do. We're large animals and just walking a path is a major impact. But we can mitigate what we do and make things better for those that follow us to do the same thing we love doing and I'll bet that climbers would prefer to climb routes that aren't tickmarked by someone else. So if you advocate cleaning holds why won't you clean your tickmarks before you pull your rope? Too lazy? Too confident you're better than the next person and they'll thank you?

[pigsteak]

noooo...why the chip, alan evil? like others said, not bolting routes would be a better "leave no trace" ethic than scraping a bit of chalk away....you are focusing on a minor issue that has somehow got under your skin.....rhunt and I laughed to ourselves the other day on the murray property...so many people pretend they are in the wilderness, when we drive down these nice roads, have a gas station 5 minutes away, see oil wells everywhere, and a parking lot full of evil, republican oil guzzling cars in the parking lot....take it for the reality it is...we are gross consumers of resources. climbing in kentucky is rarely a "wilderness" experience, even at the more remote crags.

[pigsteak]

"It's a reason to stick to trad climbing since trad climbers respect the purity of climbing free. That and because so many sport climbers suck. That's right. You know who you are. You suck."

quote from alan evil...

there you have it folks..all the wisdom for the ages. we all know it wasn't trad climbers who hammered the shit out of El Cap and have left tons of fixed gear over the years, making many routes semi sport...long live the purists!!!!

[Wes]

BTW, for future tickers, Wes taught me something recently about responsible ticking: tick above the hold for feet and below the hold for hands. I think he got spit off a "flash" attempt for irresponsible ticking.

Tick responsibly!!!

Amen, this is all you need to know about tick marks. I am an OK onsight climber - I use the tickmarks that are already there sometimes, sometimes I don't. Sometimes there is no chalk at all. I just don't get my panties all in a wad either way. Just kinda take what is there and work with it the best I can.

And tard climbers are just as bad, if not worse, in the leave no trace area. The only differenct is they have a much bigger holier then thou attitude.

[Spragwa]

Tard climbing = pulling trees off the top of cliffs.
Sport climbing = chalk and bolts.

"leave no trace" climbing doesn't exist.

[Zspider]

Tard climbing = pulling trees off the top of cliffs.
Sport climbing = chalk and bolts.

"leave no trace" climbing doesn't exist.

There's a significant distinction here. If I walk in the next day after
Mr. Trad has pulled the tree down off the top of the cliff, I really can't
tell if he was there or it happened naturally.

Mr. Sport's chalk and bolts are obvious intrusions that will last for
years. It will take thousands of years to erase the evidence of those
bolts drilled into the surface of the rock.

ZSpider

[meetVA]

ZSpider, LNT isn't about what you can perceive of nature it is about respecting nature and working towards not leaving an impact.

I assure you that someone would notice a tree that has fallen off a cliff, especially if it was a trad line that got done frequently. Or maybe the animal that used to be housed in that tree. Or the effect of the complete top of the cliffline being erroded away.

Spragwa is right about LNT and climbing not co-exisiting but we can try to minimize our impact.

[Zspider]

I see your point, Paul, but I think there are way bigger environmental issues than chalk on rock.

True, but perhaps you were not aware that it was largely because of a photographer in Idaho who complained about excessive chalk on rocks that spurred a reinterest in the Wilderness Act of 1964 and stricter guidelines for climbers...

Although bolts last a few years longer than chalk marks (in most cases), it's the chalk marks that are obvious. Might as well spray paint the cliffs.

ZSpider

[Paul3eb]

i think what he's getting at is that one is obviously a human impact and one isn't. so to the general public (or even most climbers), sport climbing is more obviously impacting the environment as compared to trad where the impacts aren't always as obvious.

and spragwa is right..