Paradise Lost - No Hands?
Nope, but those routes are rated with the the rests. I guess what I was trying to say, is that just because people do not climb the routes the way the FA did, that they are somehow "cheating". Ratings and beta take time to work themselves out. People find kneebars, handjams, or hidden holds, or that you can skip the little crimp by moving left rather then right. When you are putting up lines on a highly featured wall, then there will be more options then just the stright over the bolts line. Keeping the bolt pretty much in line is a good thing, even if the climbing wanders around a bit. Is there a set distance you can be out side of the bolted line before you have cheated? What about if the lines are really close together, if you use hold that the other route also uses, is that wrong? What about if the wall only has one route, can you wander around more then?
"There is no secret ingredient"
Po, the kung fu panda
Po, the kung fu panda
In regards to changing the routes...I believe people should respect the way the bolter envisioned the line unless there is some gross incompetence. If these routes in question are being climbed in various ways....then they can be climbed various ways...duh...so what is the big deal
That leads into the fact that I also believe that people should respect the climber to climb the route in the style they choose...given that they do not make alterations to established routes.
That leads into the fact that I also believe that people should respect the climber to climb the route in the style they choose...given that they do not make alterations to established routes.
"how ironic....now he's blind after a life of enjoying being able to see."~Homer
cliche as it may be, cheaters only cheat themselves. now, i'm not saying doing one thing or the other is necessarily cheating, but it might not be the "original line", which is what this question should be about. of course you can use the no hands rest.. it's silly and a little contrived.. but since you can do it, you can do it. but you're simply not climbing the "original line", simply by definition. for instance, how many low-ball boulder problems are classic that you can really just jump and grab the top? plenty. if you do that, did you do the v7? or if you hike up the back, is that getting the v5? no, cause it's not the original line.. yeah, sure, you can do it, but you're probably missing out on something a little better. and that's probably what's frustrating for allah: he's psyched on how well the route moves and flows and works that he's saddened and frustrated when people steal the fun from themselves and climb something else with less flow.
and great loves will one day have to part -smashing pumpkins
Well said Paul. You made a good point. It is frustrating sometimes, especially when "expert" climbers say that their way was better and then suggest to the first ascentionist that the bolts should be moved. I'm definitely not going to climb around a crux and then tell the first ascentionist that their bolts are missplaced....
I have a hard time believing that Porter climbed all the way onto the other routes when he did "Gung Ho" and "Tissue Tiger" to get some extra rests and then graded the route with thoses extra rests.
People can either climb a route following the original path of the first ascentionist or they can choose their own path. Ultimately, it is up to them to decide... But, this doesn't mean that the first ascentionist needs to go back and rebolt the route!
I have a hard time believing that Porter climbed all the way onto the other routes when he did "Gung Ho" and "Tissue Tiger" to get some extra rests and then graded the route with thoses extra rests.
People can either climb a route following the original path of the first ascentionist or they can choose their own path. Ultimately, it is up to them to decide... But, this doesn't mean that the first ascentionist needs to go back and rebolt the route!
"Those iron spikes you use have shortened the life expectancy of the Totem Pole by 50,000 years."
--A Navaho elder
--A Navaho elder
I definitley acknowledge other points of view. And... if I were in it for the ego then I don't think I would be putting up so many beginner climbs... You obviously don't know me at all...
It's the same thing in the climbing gym. You set a route and 3 different climbers come up to the route and climb it. Climber A unlocks the sequences and it flows perfectly. They come down from the route and comment on what a great route it was. Climber B finds another way, but it still works and they still enjoyed the route, but it did not flow. Climber C fucks up all of the sequences and flails all over the place. Then they come down and complain about how poorly the route was set. I see this shit all the time indoors and outdoors and it gets quite frustrating.
Personally I'm sick and tired of everybody trying to tell me how to bolt and set routes. If you've got a problem with how routes are bolted then go out and buy or borrow a gun and put up your own routes... and bolt the cracks while you're at it!
It's the same thing in the climbing gym. You set a route and 3 different climbers come up to the route and climb it. Climber A unlocks the sequences and it flows perfectly. They come down from the route and comment on what a great route it was. Climber B finds another way, but it still works and they still enjoyed the route, but it did not flow. Climber C fucks up all of the sequences and flails all over the place. Then they come down and complain about how poorly the route was set. I see this shit all the time indoors and outdoors and it gets quite frustrating.
Personally I'm sick and tired of everybody trying to tell me how to bolt and set routes. If you've got a problem with how routes are bolted then go out and buy or borrow a gun and put up your own routes... and bolt the cracks while you're at it!
"Those iron spikes you use have shortened the life expectancy of the Totem Pole by 50,000 years."
--A Navaho elder
--A Navaho elder
Oooh this is good!
Here is a quick example on the "Gung Ho Wall" that I love discussing... Relequary. Another fun climb on that stellar wall, but what is it graded? How did Porter origianlly climb the line? If you want to climb the thing and use all 3 knee bars and call it 12c have at it. Should there be two grades w/ knee bars and with out? Probably not... the climb should be downgraded to 11d/12a as that is the plumb line up the left margin of this wall climbed the easiest way possible and you don't even have to move off of the bolt line an inch. Does this decrease the quality any? I don't think so.
Maybe you should climb Paradise Lost using the Jug / ledge one time and then once without. Why not? Tripple Stack is the same way with that big Huesco way out right you can stand in at the 5th bolt. Some times it makes a difference sometimes it doesn't. You decide.
Here is a quick example on the "Gung Ho Wall" that I love discussing... Relequary. Another fun climb on that stellar wall, but what is it graded? How did Porter origianlly climb the line? If you want to climb the thing and use all 3 knee bars and call it 12c have at it. Should there be two grades w/ knee bars and with out? Probably not... the climb should be downgraded to 11d/12a as that is the plumb line up the left margin of this wall climbed the easiest way possible and you don't even have to move off of the bolt line an inch. Does this decrease the quality any? I don't think so.
Maybe you should climb Paradise Lost using the Jug / ledge one time and then once without. Why not? Tripple Stack is the same way with that big Huesco way out right you can stand in at the 5th bolt. Some times it makes a difference sometimes it doesn't. You decide.
Lest we all forget... climbing is a mostly meaningless pursuit that we do for fun.
J-Rock, Why do you get so defensive? I think overall you guys did and do a kick ass job of route and crag development., but that doesn't mean that I agree with every bolt or route. Relax, lighten up, and take things in the spirt they are intended, not as some kind of attack on your manhood. 
"There is no secret ingredient"
Po, the kung fu panda
Po, the kung fu panda
I just sick and tired of all of the complaints and criticisms... it is overwhelming at times. There is so much bitching about routes that it is difficult to tolerate ALL of it. There comes a point at which I feel it necessary to vent to all the haters and whiners and pussies who are so filled and consumed with such negativity. (I'm not talking about you Wes). It really takes the fun out of climbing...
True, I probably should relax and lighten up, but it is hard not to take such things personally when you spend lots of money, time and effort (and thought) to establish safe quality climbs and yet it seems that for every positive comment there are 3 or 4 negative ones... I consider each bolt placement carefully and I don't expect all of them to be perfect or everybody to agree, but I do take it as a personal attack when people continue to insist that they could do a better job. Fine, then do it.
True, I probably should relax and lighten up, but it is hard not to take such things personally when you spend lots of money, time and effort (and thought) to establish safe quality climbs and yet it seems that for every positive comment there are 3 or 4 negative ones... I consider each bolt placement carefully and I don't expect all of them to be perfect or everybody to agree, but I do take it as a personal attack when people continue to insist that they could do a better job. Fine, then do it.
"Those iron spikes you use have shortened the life expectancy of the Totem Pole by 50,000 years."
--A Navaho elder
--A Navaho elder