whatever happened to onsight climbing???

[J-Rock]

Tricam are awesome in horizontals and pockets which are plentiful at the Red and they are quite easy to place with one hand. Some of the giant tricams might require both hands though.

[Zspider]

Well, obviously being the target of your comments, I'll bite. When writing the route descriptions for the new guidebook, I definitely was always thinking in the back of my head "Should I say this? Should I say that?" as far as "beta" goes. Sometimes I just wrote a description while climbing the route in my head and left it at that. When that happened, I probably told more than what a seasoned climber would want to hear.

I couldn't give a rat's ass about onsighting. More beta more better.

But for those so inclined, I would think that someone wanting an onsight could find the route using the guide book topo and forgo the description.

ZSpider

[Power2U]

Just read below the line and relax....sheesh people

[Artsay]

I think it's better to have more information than less in a climbing guidebook and just have it left up to the user as to what or what not they want to take from it. Too many guidebooks have left me lost, confused, wandering, and wondering. I know with this new guide that Ray took a lot of time hiking to each crag, counting steps, mileage and bolts, describing features, and just basically adding descriptive information that he thought would be helpful to users. If it was me, I would have left out a ton of the stuff he put in because it's a lot more work to put thought into each description and I'm too lazy for that. So FYI, no route descriptions were copied from the online guide. Ray re-wrote each one.

[ynot]

Too many guidebooks have left me lost, confused, wandering, and wondering. .

Yup! Been there! Senecas guide is like Where's Waldo until you learn your way around.

[captain static]

Here are a couple road trip stories related to guidebooks & beta. The first story was a trip to the Needles of South Dakota. My partner & I had no guidebook and went to check out a crack on an attractive looking needle formation. My partner started up first, got up about ten or so feet ... rip .. takes a ground fall. I say, "Here, give me the rack." I get up about ten or so feet ... rip ... take a ground fall. We both agree, better go into town to the outfitters & buy a guidebook. So we are in the outfitters and the guy behind the counter asks if we would like to climb with him the next day. We meet up with him & the next day I belay Needles legend Bob Archbold on the FA of "Trojan Determination".

The second story was on a Pacific NW road trip where one of the crags we visited was Skaha Bluffs. We check in at one of the guidebook recommended campgrounds and the lady behind the counter goes, "So you're climbers eh, you need to talk to my husband, he's in the guidebook." He asks us what level & style climbers we are and then goes on to recommend several routes. Even with the guidebook his advice saved us so much time from having to wander around looking for routes as Skaha has sixteen different cliffs with almost 400 routes.

I'm sure many road trippers in the future will consider Ray's guide and the beta picked up at Miguel's to be a blessing.

[J-Rock]

I've always enjoyed guidebooks that have a section about the history of an area and the geology. That way I can better appreciate the efforts of those who have gone before and I can sample some of the classic lines. A good guidebook will motivate and get a person excited to go climbing at that area. I have a strong feeling that Ray's guide will not disappoint us...

[kneebar]

I am looking forward to Ray's new guide, if there is information you don't want to know just don't read it. There are a lot of climbers that enjoy onsites, the idea has not gone away.

[Wes]

Well, I had a chance to kinda glance through the new guidebook some yesterday, and it kicks ass!

[Christian]

"How about a little less questions and a little more SHUT THE HELL UP!!!!!"