beating bible-ers

Post by **squeezindlemmon** » Tue Jul 12, 2005 5:06 pm

parable wrote:A monkey was playing near a stream when he suddenly noticed a big fish swimming in it. He reached in, pulled the fish out of the water and laid it on the sand.

An owl perched on a nearby tree asked, "Why did you take the fish out of the water?"

"So it wouldn't drown." replied the monkey.

This is one way of viewing people who try to convert other people (or convince them that their way is the right AND only way). Like the monkey, they didn't know better and thought that they were saving the fish. Good intentions, yes. But not neccesarily good for the fish.

p.s. FYI, I'm Catholic and used to be a missionary.

Post by **Danny** » Tue Jul 12, 2005 5:10 pm

Paul. I define evil as suffering and good as joy. So to address your query about good and evil if there were not people I think there still would be because I believe other animals can suffer and have joy.

Post by **Alan Evil** » Tue Jul 12, 2005 5:10 pm

Christianity has always been so good for humanity. I mean, just look at the Inquisition, the Crusades, and Jim Baker.

Post by **kato** » Tue Jul 12, 2005 5:14 pm

charlie wrote: Personally, I'd hesitate to believe Christ (or God) would be so proud or egomaniacal to say good people working to promote positive influences in the universe could not get to heaven (or even worse, suffer eternal damnation) through the simple technicality of following a different teacher.

I hear what you're saying (and what follows is just for discussion, no argument is intended), although from the very beginning, it was all about atonement through a blood sacrifice, not about following a particular teacher. Although Jesus taught much and was called Rabbi, he made it clear several times that it was not his main purpose. The whole Jewish system up to that time revolved around pretty elaborate blood sacrifice rituals. These were earthly symbols of a spiritual system, or another way, a foretelling of what was to come, i.e. Jesus, with the purpose of being a final sacrifice. The teaching was icing on the cake. And as I read it, those who interpret Christianity as a moral system are missing the point. The Bible says in black and white that no one is righteous, not even close. Following the teaching is just an outward sign that you really are interested in being reconciled to God, and as you say, most people understand the principles more or less naturally.

On a tangent, the whole eternal damnation bit does not have a whole lot of scriptural support. I suspect the church started preaching this around the same time they realized they could finance cathedrals through the sale of indulgences.

Post by **Paul3eb** » Tue Jul 12, 2005 5:15 pm

Danny wrote:I define evil as suffering and good as joy.

but is this necessarily what evil and good truly are? are there times you have seen suffering but what was happening to them was really "good"? or times when people were joyful and it was really "evil"?

Post by **Meadows** » Tue Jul 12, 2005 5:15 pm

mgad wrote: Belief system. See Paul3eb, or my post of the Apostle's Creed the basic Credo of Christianity.

I didn't know that I had to subscribe to a system, but I feel that I just have to live and be true to myself and others. I have to be comfortable with the fact that I fuck up quite a bit (can I say "fuck" in your presence?). I'm human, a mammel with instincts whose "intellect" or ability to reason beyond instincts doesn't always kick in.

I was a devout Christian for most of my life. However, when Satan introduced me to biology classes

and encouraged me to use my inquisitive mind to look at history surrounding the writings in the Bible, it dawned on me that most people in this faith don't have a clue about what they're preaching. I don't have time for specifics, PM me if you want to meet and discuss that.

I love the diversity in beliefs here, but I feel disturbed when some try proselytize others into that system ... or pass judgment and then claim it's God's judgment. Of course, that's their belief system. A guy in Indy carries a sign around that says, "God hates homosexuals." That's an erroneous justification of hate. Sad.

Post by **Alan Evil** » Tue Jul 12, 2005 5:20 pm

You see, they're right because they're "Christians." See? "Christianity" is "right"? See? See? Evolution is wrong because Christianity is right. See? See?

Post by **rhunt** » Tue Jul 12, 2005 5:24 pm

Ultra wrote:
By no other name...
By no other "belief system"
There is only one way to Heaven.
There is only one way to "enlightenment"
That is through belief and faith in the one and only son of the living God, Jesus.
Born of a virgin,beaten and crucified on a cross,Risen from the grave and imparted to us as a Comforter until he comes again, His Holy Spirit. Amen"[/b]

You call me simple...thats because it is simple.

I always have wondered why Christians try to convience non-believers by quoting the Bible. They're non-believers hence they don't believe that the bible is anything but I nice little story. Quoting the Bible isn't going to make them believe in the Bible..and don't give that "living breathing word of God" stuff...you got to start somewhere else first.

Share with them how God stepped in and intervened in your life, how God became real to you apart from what is written in the Bible.

Post by **pigsteak** » Tue Jul 12, 2005 5:29 pm

Meadows,
You mean God doesn't hate homosexuals? Now where am I going to throw all my anger? Know any good porn shops or abortion centers? Heck, I'll even settle for a reformed baptist congregation to heckle.

I like the saying "Lord, protect me from your followers." (I consider myself a Christian, btw.) Seems like many of us either had a bad experience in church or with a person who tried to cram faith down our throat. Either way, we have decided to throw out the entire idea.

Squeeze, how does the Catholic church take to you marrying a dude who is christian/muslim/buddhist/yingyang/harikhrishna/yogiberra/sport climber? Don't they have "issues" with it, and is your personal salvation on the line for taking such a wild ride?

Post by **Danny** » Tue Jul 12, 2005 5:30 pm

Paul3eb wrote:
Danny wrote:I define evil as suffering and good as joy.
but is this necessarily what evil and good truly are? are there times you have seen suffering but what was happening to them was really "good"? or times when people were joyful and it was really "evil"?

Yes, but I think about it as a continuum of suffering/joy in a utilitarian average over time and space. So if someone has to suffer in order to minimize the suffering/joy ratio than that is probably good or at least "better" than the alternative. Likewise, isolated joy that increases the suffering/joy ratio is probably bad. It's not a perfect solution but barring the complete ellimination of suffering I don't know of a better one.