Question of Ethics

[kato]

A long-standing climbing tradition of not poaching someone's project draws...

You missed the point. Forget the comic. Once you say it's all just a matter of perspective, you can't expect everyone to follow your long standing traditions. They clearly have a different perspective.

[steep4me]

What route were your draws left on? I always understood that if draws are left on a route--they are someone's project and that you can climb on them, but don't steal them. If someone leaves gear on a route because they cannot finish it, they usually only leave one thing to bail off of. So, a route full of draws is obviously someone's project. I think anyone who takes them is the same kind of person who breaks into climbers' cars at the crags to steal their stuff. That is truely disturbing.

Both of my projects have someone else's draws on them. I hope they don't remove them due to fear of theft! I don't want to hang my own draws

[One-Fall]

They were in the "pee-cave" at roadside.

[marathonmedic]

It was probably the same people that use that thing to pee in instead of walking outside the dripline. Nobody would be down there besides n00bs and people that climb .13. .13 climbers all know about project draws. N00bs see free gear and deserve what will happen when they whip on a draw that has been outside for that long. The 3' falls on Chunnel are one thing, but a 20 footer on those things might be scary.

I wonder if gym owners might be willing to put up some sort of poster about climbing ethics. That way people would have a chance to learn about the values of our community as they learn about our sport.

Leave no trace.
Booty vs. project gear.
Climb in small groups and don't "save" climbs for your friends.
Never let go of the rope.
Respect the rock and the environment, including not shouting profanities.
Urinate and defecate outside the dripline.
Chalk is for drying your hands, not for writing on rock.
Respect the landowners' wishes.
etc.

[Saxman]

With climbing gyms sending noob sport climbers who never pick up a book, read a magazine, or utilize a mentor, how are they really supposed to know any better? There are no signs. There is no orientation session that all new climbers must take to be legal. To think that all climbers are people intelligent enough and/or mature enough to want to know what is the correct behavior and search out that information for themselves is ludicrous. I think getting one's shit stolen sucks, but to think everyone should intrinsically know better is just as bad. Since society seems to think appealing to the lowest common denominator is good, maybe everyone who puts up project draws should hang a note on each draw stating it is a project draw, not booty, and what the correct ethical choice is. Then if the person steals it, he's just a fucking thief and not someone too ignorant to know better.

[chester]

Probably some damn trad climber. We see gear in a crack and it's booty...guess it's not the same with sport.
Ive fantasized about going to the load and stealing all the booty...but then what in the hell would I do with a bunch of draws?

[512OW]

I was wondering if anyone had any insights into the mindset that says, "Hey, free draws. Lets get them."

Probably the same mindset that thinks its ok to shoplift, steal cars etc on a smaller scale - although draws aren't really cheap, so....

Whoa...those are two different people. Trust me...

Shoplifters are usually one of two types...kids who are trying to see what they can get away with, or people who think its ok to steal from "the man" or "the system", because its a business instead of a residence...

Car Thieves are either thrill seekers (in my case...) or have a hook up to sell them.

Any of those things I can't connect to stealing draws.....

I would never steal them...but if you're a strong enough climber to hang them, why not clean them???

I dont' think its a question of ethics, but a question of stupidity. You were stupid for trusting people.

Plain and simple.

[kneebar]

"Ethics" change over the years. Before all the steep sport routes were put up you didn't leave anything on a climb that wouldn't be considered booty. Leaving draws up just makes it much easier for the climber. You might leave your draws up for the day or even the weekend then tr it and remove the draws. I'm not saying somebody should steal your draws cuss that just sucks. Leaving draws up on private land that we as climbers own is one thing, on public land its nothing but an eye-sore for other users. Over the years we have put the first bolt higher for various reasons including visual impact for other land users.

I had also the perception that a rating was considered for a onsite attempt (but then that would have been trad and not sport), again that has changed. Now apparently you work out every conceivable move, clean the holds, hang the draws, stick clip the first bolt, wait for the perfect weather conditions, get the "redpoint", then give it a rating. Sounds like a lot of work to me! "Ethics" are much different then when I started climbing not to say they were ever any better or worse, just diffferent.

I do hope you get your draws back!

[J-Rock]

Muir is based on an onsight grading system. Ideally each ascent would be an onsight. But, this is not an ideal world. Any route will feel easier once you climb it several times, rehearse the moves, tick mark the holds, find the flow, etc.

[kdelap]

The poster thing is a good idea, but once again ethics are evidently personal because as marathonmedic has Leave No Trace at the top of his ethics list; he also believes it is ok to defecate at the crag. One of the main rules as we all know of Leave No Trace is pack it in pack it out. Including your feces and toilet paper.