Spinners

Post by **J-Rock** » Wed Apr 27, 2005 1:01 pm

How tight depends on the length of your wrench and the amount of leverage that you can apply. Personally I like to get them really tight.

Whoa... that sounded kind of dirty.

Post by **ATLdude** » Wed Apr 27, 2005 1:31 pm

Actually- How tight depends on the specs included w/ most bolts. Read the box. Ex.- Hilti bolts require about 30 psi.

Overtight WILL break the expansion cone (and you may or may not know it) producing a bolt with only shear strength and no pull-out.

The threaded rod bolt (expansion bolt, not 5 piece) is a really bad idea in the Red cause the stone is too soft.

Post by **J-Rock** » Wed Apr 27, 2005 1:39 pm

However, if you are using a short handled wrench you will not be able to produce enough torque to break the expansion cone. With a longer handle you will quickly exceed 30-40 pounds and could easily overtighten the bolt. This can be verified with a torque wrench.

Post by **Andrew** » Wed Apr 27, 2005 3:24 pm

I was hoping that this thread was about the wheels that spin.

Post by **weber** » Wed Apr 27, 2005 4:48 pm

ATLdude wrote:Actually- How tight depends on the specs included w/ most bolts. Read the box. Ex.- Hilti bolts require about 30 psi...

Torque is measured, not in psi, but rather in inch-pounds or foot-pounds in the Am. system. Imagine a force of 10 pounds being applied tangentially to a point on a wrench handle 12 inches from the center of the bolt. This will produce 12 x 10 = 120 inch-pounds or 1 x 10 = 10 foot-pounds of torque.

The general (!) range of permissible torque values applied to 1/2-inch Dynabolt Golds or Powers (Rawl) bolts is about 25 to 60 foot pounds. The torque is actually applied to a 3/8-16 bolt within the 1/2 sleeve. ITW Ramset/Red Head, the manufacturers of the Dynabolt Gold publish a installation torque value of 60 foot-pounds for this grade five bolt. When tightened with excessive torque, the bolt will fail in torsional shear. So, just what is "excessive torque" for the bolts used down here in the Red?

We can publish a value derived from a fastener strength analysis program, or we can twist the heads off the actual anchor bolts holding hangers to rock to get more realistic values. Tests will be conducted sometime soon and should provide an ultimate torque value to avoid.

The mfg.-recommended 60 foot-pounds is very hard to achieve with an 8-inch wrench. With this tool, one would have to apply roughly 91 pounds at its distal end to produce 60 foot-pounds of torque.

One last curious finding. An excessive downward pull on a bolted hanger bracket (approximately 4500 pounds for Dynabolt Golds) will shear off the bolt head. In tests, failure has occured near this value for bolts that have been torqued in from 15 to 60 foot-pounds. The installation torque seems to have little effect on the amount of downward pull force needed to fail the hanger system. Outward Pull, is a different matter.

Rick

Post by **Ascentionist** » Wed Apr 27, 2005 4:49 pm

Cool story about lurkist. Was at Roadside once with Lurkist, EJ and some other people. Lurkis led Pulling Pockets (pre-rebolting) and lowered off. EJ went up on TR and when she got to the 3rd bolt started dogging pretty hard. At one point when she came off the hanger popped and she swung out from the wall.

Lurkist looks up and said as casually as only he could be, "Oh yeah, that was loose when I was up there. I tried to tighten it by hand but decided to just climb on."

Post by **Bashie** » Thu Apr 28, 2005 5:39 am

Back to Huggy's original question: what the heck are those other bolts, with the threads sticking out; They are another type of 1/2 inch diameter concete anchor, that has been called "externally threaded sleeve anchors" , and is similar to what Powers Fasteners calls their "Lok bolts" . They are about 1/2 the strength of the "Power Bolt" (Power/Rawl 5 piece bolt). 1/2 x 2 1/4 Lok bolts are rated to 5015 lbs shear strength; 4210 lbs tension in 4000 psi concrete. While the 1/2 x 3 1/2 inch Power Bolt is rated at 10,245 lbs shear strength; 10,690 tensile strength in 4000 psi concrete. Note that the ~ 5000 lb strength of the externally threaded sleeve anchors is greater than the forces a climber can generate by falling (on a dynamic rope). So, people have been placing some of these. Most of the routes at the Hominy Hole were protected by these bolts (probably 3 3/4 inches long; not the 2 1/4 length from the test specs). People have been whipping on these with no ill evvects as far as I know. Their advantages are 1) they are cheaper than the 5-piece bolts, and 2) they are easier to place than 5-piece bolts (they just slide right in, don't need a hammer, and you can easily pull the bolt out to drill deeper if you need to. You can also buy them in practically any length - (8 inches, 1 foot etc). They are weaker than the Power Bolt because it is grade 2 threaded rod where the hanger attaches on the Lok bolts, while it is a solid shank of grade 6 steel where the hanger attaches on the Power Bolts (dude at Quickset, Lexington, pers communication) I personally quit using the "Lok bolts" simply because the Powers bolts are apparently a much superior anchor. I'll pay the extra $2.50 for each bolt, because I don't want to injure or kill anybody. I would be interested in trying some stainless steel lok bolts - maybe with a bigger diameter for beefiness. Anyways, that is the long answer to your question. Here are some good links to find out more: Powers Fasteners (their specs are here if you dig), American Safe Climbing Federation, and don't miss the tech-weenie page of FISH (Russ Walling).

http://www.powers.com/product_06160.html
http://www.safeclimbing.org/education.htm
http://www.fishproducts.com/tech/techweenie.html
Oh yeah, notice that the test specs were in concrete, with brand spankin' new bolts. This isn't the same as crusty bolts in Corbin Sandstone. This is why we are all psyched that Rick is testing the bolts we climb on in Corbin Sandstone - providing more realistic strengths of the bolts we climb above and lower off of.

Post by **strum** » Thu Apr 28, 2005 2:47 pm

I was climbing at the local sport crag on sunday decided I'd take a hanger off and check a spinner, there was only about 1 mm of bolt left, the rest had been worn away, I cold break off the end with my fingers.

but then again it was old, and hey I live in the San Lois valley, so pretty much everthing is a little gettho

Post by **alien2** » Thu Apr 28, 2005 5:05 pm

Uh, did someone say spinner?

<Uh Huh Huh Huh>

Post by **Bashie** » Tue May 03, 2005 6:13 pm

Yeah, I guess that was more than anyone would ever want to know about the threaded studs sticking out of the rock. From Strum's and the Assentionist's stories, it looks like spinners can be bad news.
I saw another pair of spinners - the anchors of Redriverclimbing.com are both spinning like crazy. I tightened them a full turn with my fingers before lowering off - really wish I had a 9/16 " wrench. These probably just need to be tightened up. So some good samaritan should bring a wrench to Rebel Camp Hollow and crank them down.
Someday soon I'll replace one or two of the spinners on the 5.10 wall at Roadside. I'll post pictures of the bolts. The amount of corrosion that occurs on these bone-dry walls, and the amount of wear from the spinning hanger (note Strum's post) is something that everyone should see.