old biddy for sure...supposed gossip is moral depravity and climbing a piece of rock sends you to the dungeon...geesh....
so until the perps speak up...gossip away...it is the climber's right....or at least our inbred disposition.
defend thyselves...
(I am interested to hear the outcome of this, as I have a couple of unsent projects that are red tagged at my home crowd, and am wondering how long i get until the pythons come out.)
This is an interesting topic that has been debated in the past and will probably be debated long into the future. What is an acceptable amount of time for a project route to be completed? A few months? A year? More than a year? If somebody redpoints a project that "belonged" to (or was bolted by) another climber and did not mention it to anyone then is it still an FA?
I understand the amount of time and effort that goes into putting up a new route. Of course it would be disappointing for another climber to "steal" the FA without doing any of the work to develop the route. If a climber is interested in doing FA's then they should put in the time exploring, rigging ropes, cleaning the routes, bolting them, building trails, or at least help somebody else who IS doing this and learn the ropes in the process.
The hard work will pay off and will reap its own rewards. The lazy path is not the way for first ascentionists...
"Those iron spikes you use have shortened the life expectancy of the Totem Pole by 50,000 years."
Since there are no details as of yet, let's speak in general terms...
I'd say that most routes are bolted in the "off" season. Let's say a bolter puts up a few hard lines during the coldest days of winter. I think they should be given due time to send each of the routes in turn. How long does someone deserve to get in shape, work several hard routes that they busted their ass to bolt and clean, and finally send each ot them? Hmmmmmm.
If someone swipes a recently (relitive terms here) developed route out from under someone, then the thief easily gets instant dickhead status.
I did send the route in question. However, there was no red tag on any bolt on the route. I am not a mind reader and did not realize that this was still Kenny's project. I was pretty sure that Kenny bolted it. However, since there was no tag, I assumed that he had either done it or opened it up.
I have spoken to Kenny and we have cleared the air.
I do feel that I should have been contacted if people had issues. Posting on any public medium is pestiferous. It is a way to get a rise out of people without having the facts.
I knew the answer before I asked the question. I spoke with Bill Ramsey who told me that Ben had confessed to him that he thought he had done one of Kenny's routes and felt bad about it.
I doubt that the epiphany that the route was Kenny's came to Ben after he clipped the anchors.
Here is the take home of this high school lesson. If you are not sure and have reason to think that the route might still be a project and you are climbing in an area where several hard lines have recently been bolted and you know the developer is still working on several of them, stay off. It is real simple.
There is too much rock in the Red that has many undeveloped 5 star lines begging for the drill to justify a convenient temporary lapse in moral judgement and do someone's route.
Get to work and drill your own project.
"It really is all good ! My thinking only occasionally calls it differently..."
Normie
the lurkist wrote:Get to work and drill your own project.
You mean, like, actually work? And get dirty? And spend a whole climbing day cleaning and brushing? Why do that when a person can just take advantage of the work of others? And not just with FA's.
On a side note, I can still remember the grin on Kenny's face when I took him back there for the first time. And I think he has done a killer job developing a crag, not just bolting some lines for himself. There is a big difference.
so really, what is a justifiable amount of time to leave someone to their project? months, years? what if the bolter has spent an enormous amount of time on the project, but still claims that they will do it. should someone just step up and take it to help the bolter and climbing community move forward?
Yo HO!! Just got me a code red and some funyons big dawg!!! SHIT YEAH! - Ray, excited about his breakfast
a route isn't open until the developer says it is open. that is easy enough. stealing is never justified. the route wouldn't be there anyway without their effort, so you wouldn't be climbing it anyway. why does the climbing community need to "move forward"? and by who's definition and by who's pace?
I know Ho's questions are legit, but in reality there really isn't a debate. well, there sort of is a debate, because we are only talking about sport lines, right? what if I claim a trad line over my head..does that mean I can tag the closest tree, and everyone has to stay off. why can we only claim sport routes? the "claiming" of routes is property rights issue where none legitimately exists..(right sprag?) if you are bolting on land you do not persoanlly own, you do not own anything you put there, including those bolts...so we must be talking about something other than true rights...are we talking about common courtesy here? (yes..we are)
so pigsteak has ruled..there are 2,000 routes at the Red...stay off the projects until they are opened, whether it be next week or next decade. I agree with lurkist..go do your own dirty work if you want the glory of FA's.
Last edited by pigsteak on Tue Apr 12, 2005 2:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
