Spencer's Film (Red River Ruckus)

Post by **pigsteak** » Thu Feb 17, 2005 5:40 am

the only reason to put up lines is to spray on here and at miguel's....cut the crap about community, sharing, and brotherhood. climbing is selfish. period. wanna feel good? go to a homeless shelter and volunteer.

Post by **J-Rock** » Thu Feb 17, 2005 2:29 pm

Hey hamburger boy, do you think that Johnny only put up lines so that he could spray on the forum and at Miguel's? What about all the others? Fortunately not everybody else shares your point of view. Do you have some sort of divine power that allows you to sense the motivations of others? Or perhaps you are the selfish one?

Post by **Caspian** » Thu Feb 17, 2005 2:35 pm

pigsteak wrote:the only reason to put up lines is to spray on here and at miguel's....cut the crap about community, sharing, and brotherhood. climbing is selfish. period. wanna feel good? go to a homeless shelter and volunteer.

I agree that much of climbing is selfish...but i do think that some things are different than they used to be. I think that much of what is going on right now at muir valley is very much about community and sharing. Sure, people are being personally satisfied by putting up new lines and such, but much thought is going into the bigger picture than just the FA bragging rights.

Post by **Caspian** » Thu Feb 17, 2005 2:38 pm

marathonmedic wrote:Kiss up.

someone is jealious.

Post by **pigsteak** » Thu Feb 17, 2005 3:51 pm

jrock,

if it weren't selfish, why make the first ascensionists name public? what "community good" comes from that being known? so we can thank them and elevate their "feel good" factor? I've bolted. I realize that enjoyment for all is part of the equation, but I also know that claiming my part of the American climbing history landscape is big. What if you put up a route you truly thought was perfect, and the community as a whole thought it sucked. Would that bum you out? If so, then I suggest your motivation is not as pure as you like to tell yourself.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Thu Feb 17, 2005 4:16 pm

FA'ers who are defensive to input regarding bolt placement make me question their motivation for putting up routes. Some of the best, most experienced bolters are the most open to suggestions to improvement of their routes in the rare times when bolt placements come into question. In fact, it has been my experience that these first ascensionists welcome input and want to make sure their routes are smartly bolted and safe. Clearly ego is not a factor for these FA'ers. It is just as clear that ego is a factor for some...

Post by **Toad** » Thu Feb 17, 2005 4:47 pm

J-rock, you make some good points that in the end may be true for some FA's. Having other climbers enjoy a route is cool after the bolter has sent it, or put forth their best effort. But, I think pigsteak is correct in noting the lack of altruism on the part of bolters. If someone puts in all the effort, it's to send a line and attach a name to it.

Now on the bigger scheme of things - what brings more immediate gratification - letting climbers climb a route when it's complete or having a whole climbing area to yourself for a few years before it becomes overrun with the usual horde of egotistical loudmouths that think they are entitled to climb on everything that someone else took the time to find, bolt and clean?

Post by **pigsteak** » Thu Feb 17, 2005 5:06 pm

and just to clarify.. I in no way was directing my post at any specific FA'er. I have had to deal with those same feelings of slefish pride and indignation when I was told a route of mine was lackluster. it hurts, but i know as I put up more routes, I will evolve.

Post by **Toad** » Thu Feb 17, 2005 7:01 pm

davsa wrote:FA'ers who are defensive to input regarding bolt placement make me question their motivation for putting up routes. ... In fact, it has been my experience that these first ascensionists welcome input ...

What difference does the motivation make? I think most people are just happy that a route gets put up and that they didn't have pay for the hardware. But I suppose perceived motivation makes a difference after the fact when people are bitching about the reason a climber bolted a route.

Input from others? Maybe good, maybe not. I'm sure that bolting a flake would have gotten mixed reviews. But, in the end it's the choice of the bolter and their experience. Their ability and judgement are revealed in the end product - for better or for worse.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Thu Feb 17, 2005 7:19 pm

I don't care why people put up routes, be it altruism or ego. However, when routes have potentially unsafe bolt placements, FA'ers should be willing to re-evaluate rather than get all pissy and defensive. Afterall, it's THEIR reputation that is on the line, so whether ego comes into play or not--either way--they certainly should care if they are fucking up.

Toad wrote:Their ability and judgement are revealed in the end product - for better or for worse.

that's what I'm saying.

And for what it's worth, I'm super grateful to everyone who invests time and money into putting up routes for the rest of us, whatever their reasons.