Rappelling or lowering off?

[jstokes]

When TRing I was under the impression that rope is never on the anchors but on your draws that are clipped to the anchors and the only time the rope should be on the anchors is when you are lowering or rapping. So what does it matter if lowering or TRing is worse, in TRing rope should not be touching the anchors, right?

[TradMike]

Maybe, just put sacrificial rings/quick-links on the most heavily utilized routes. Let's face it; people will do what is comfortable/convenient to them. Why don't we just solve the problem with a link you have to replace every five years? I don't think a few dollars is going to hurt anyone for few years of abuse. This way, you don't have to potentially drill another hole. How many hole are at the top of fuzzy now?

[Aenima]

Anyone that says that you don't have to untie to lower is obviously toproping thru the anchors and has bad ethics. There's no way to put the middle of a rope thru a loop without using one of the ends.

Yes you can.
After clipping yourself to the anchors, your belayer gives you slack.
Pinch the rope and push it through the anchors. Most anchors and ropes can allow this to be done.
Tie a double figure eight with the loop and attach to your harness with a locker or two opposing draws.
Then you can untie your original knot without ever being off the rope or off belay.
This can't be done 100% of the time, but very close to it.

[rhunt]

In my opinion..rapping is not as safe and that should be the bottom line. Now before everyone freaks out, let me explain.

actually the lurkist explains why in the other thread, I'll quote him

"....Adding in the steps while hanging at the anchor of clipping in, untying, threading the rope and then hooking up the rappel device and rapping down invites error. As we all know, there is not room for error here.
Strictly from a probability stand point adding in all of these steps and done over and over many times, eventually someone will make an error. Probably someone less experience. Tired, having difficulty with the knot, probably not clipping in right or hooking up the rappel device wrong. Anyway, the mistake will occur, someone decks and is really hurt if not dead.
It is the old adage of a chain is as strong....
Remove as many steps from the process to avoid one an error being made at one of those steps...."

I disagree with this logic. There are no extra major steps when rapping as opposed to lowering.

Both Lowering and Rapping one has to:

- Get to the top
- Clip yourself in
- Untie
- Thread the rope through the anchor
- Tie in or load the ATC
- Ask you partner to put you on belay or verify you rope ends reach the ground
- Unclip
- Lower back down or rappel

you don't have to agree...it's my opinion but when I clean I never come off belay...that is the MAJOR difference.

[rhunt]

*- Ask you partner to put you on belay or verify you rope ends reach the ground *

Nope, my partner never takes me off belay, so we eliminate the chance of miscommunication. I thread the anchor and lower without either of us saying anything. No obnoxious screaming "ARE BOTH ENDS DOWN?" like friggin' gumby rappellers.

nicely put..thanks for saying it for me Bushwhacker

[rhunt]

Lowering is NOT THE PROBLEM with anchor wear - Top roping through the anchor gear is what really wears it out. Go look and the anchors on harder, steep routes, and as a whole, they don't look nearly as bad as the anchors on the more moderate routes.

I rap when lowering will be hard on the rope. All other times, I lower.

Wes

Wes you make an excellent point here but I think the reason harder, steep sport routes don't wear as fast is because people usually do not top rope them. It's the 10's that get the most traffic and therefore get the most wear.

[rhunt]

If rapping freaks some people out then they should not be climbers. They are obviously choosing the wrong sport and they should find another hobby.

your not serious are you? Do you think they teach rappeling in the gyms? Where do you think most kids these day learn to climb and then head to first when they want to try climbing on real rock..not the trad cliffs in the midwest...

[squeezindlemmon]

Do you think they teach rappeling in the gyms? Where do you think most kids these day learn to climb and then head to first when they want to try climbing on real rock..not the trad cliffs in the midwest...

If your local climbing gym does not offer rappeling lessons, then they should look into it. It's stupid to say you're a climbing gym and yet do not offer these things. Rappeling is a HUGE part of climbing. Sport, trad, multi-pitch.... whatever way you climb, don't you think it's a good idea to learn how to rappel, rhunt? You can't say, I'm only climbing sport for the rest of my life, so I don't need to know how to rappel.

[rhunt]

Do you think they teach rappeling in the gyms? Where do you think most kids these day learn to climb and then head to first when they want to try climbing on real rock..not the trad cliffs in the midwest...

If your local climbing gym does not offer rappeling lessons, then they should look into it. It's stupid to say you're a climbing gym and yet do not offer these things. Rappeling is a HUGE part of climbing. Sport, trad, multi-pitch.... whatever way you climb, don't you think it's a good idea to learn how to rappel, rhunt? You can't say, I'm only climbing sport for the rest of my life, so I don't need to know how to rappel.

i agree 100% I learned rappeling before I learned to climb 12 years ago before there were climbing gyms. The gym I climb at does not teach rappelling but then again they don't teach outdoor climbing. The reality is people these days learn to climb through the gyms and usually(read usually but not always) sport climbing and bouldering. Sport climbers just don't rappel when cleaning they lower. Not trying to get into a pissing fight here but I have say it is up to me and only me to decide what kind of climbing I will do the rest of my life, if my body lets me I will sport climb and boulder the rest of my life. I think it great that you and many others here on this board are in to all types of climbing but to assume other see it that way or will...it's not that way.

[Caspian]

you don't have to agree...it's my opinion but when I clean I never come off belay...that is the MAJOR difference.

The original point made was about the extra steps the lurkist claim that are included in rappelling and not included in lowering, this is was i was commenting on.

Adding in the steps while hanging at the anchor of clipping in, untying, threading the rope and then hooking up the rappel device and rapping down invites error.

Regardless of the order you do it, or whether you are "on belay" or not.....you still have to clip in, thread the rope, untie, reattach, and get lowered to the ground. All these steps invite error...but they are all essential to both lowering or rappelling. You can do them in any order you like....but they are still steps that need to be done....please feel free to share if anyone has figured out a way to skip steps.